Paul: Hello, welcome to Building Brand Advocacy. My name is Paul Archer, I'm your host. And today I am joined by someone I'm very excited to chat about this. I'm joined today by NJ Folk from Athletic Propulsion Labs, APL, the incredible shoes that some of you would have heard about. And an amazing story getting to where we are today. I'm really excited to dig into this. NJ, welcome.
NJ: Thank you, Paul. I am so excited to chat with you. We've chatted before and now it's really official.
Paul: Yes, this is it. We can geek out now and go into all those brand building pieces. So, but for anyone who doesn't know APL, give us a little pitch. Tell us what you do. Tell us a little bit about your origin story.
NJ: Well, APL is actually a very fascinating and exciting origin 2009 by Adam and Ryan Goldston. They were college athletes. They always wanted to jump higher. And we invented a basketball shoe, the Concept One, that makes you jump higher. That came out in 2010. And in that shoe, we have our patented load and launch device that propels you up to three and a half inches higher. And...we went to the NBA and we were like, I hope the shoe gets approved by the NBA. And what happens the shoe is banned by the NBA. We become the number one story in the world, the 17th most searched Google term, our website crashes, we become a global sensation and we're off and running. And part of our strategy at that time, which was so fascinating is we said we really wanted to go into a certain part of the marketplace and really be great at what we do and we wanted to go into men's basketball. So we created the shoe that was also the most expensive shoe at the time ever put in the marketplace. It was $300 and it was a sensation. So our website crash took us eight hours to get back up. We sold out. I mean, nothing could have been better. And of course, now we're the official banned by the NBA shoe. So we own that.
Paul: That's amazing. This is it. So, so where are you guys at now? I mean, that was, that was a few years ago, that growth has been pretty steep since then. Like, like, tell us what's been going on.
NJ: Absolutely. So from there, what's really interesting is that in 2014, we launched our men's and women's running lines and really were the pioneers and innovators of luxury performance in that category. And that was the beginning of us really moving and growing the brand on a very steep and interesting level because we were branching out into the marketplace. And that started with our new designs, our propelium outsoles that have, you know, seven times more EVA. And also, I mean, you know, our product, we're not logo driven. So we're really design, technology, innovation driven, and that really resonated in the marketplace. So for us, this always starts with the product. But also, I mean, we're, People like to be discovered wearing our product also. They feel really great in it. They love the performance, the technology, but they also, when they're out and about, people will say, well, what are you wearing? And what is that? And then everyone gets to say, be like the hero or heroine in our product. And they love that. I mean, who doesn't love that feeling of discovering a brand, embracing it, and becoming a part of it. And one of the things that makes APL so unique is just our overall sense of community and people wanting to be part of the APL family.
Paul: And that's one of the things when my team heard that we were meeting for dinner a month or so ago, there was there was there was binary there was either what's APL or oh my god I love APL. And then there would then be a pitch thing that sort of happened there just oh it's like this and do this and they're banned by the NBA and this incredible word of mouth story. I mean, a certain amount of that is luck in terms of getting banned by the NBA and some good PR. But carrying on to that, like, how have you led into creating that word of mouth? How have you used it as a tool? Have you ever been tactical about it or have you just let it happen?
NJ: I think that's happened very organically through our sense of community, how, especially on social and our stories. I mean, so many individuals who spontaneously send in and post all this incredible content because they're loving the interaction with the brand, but they're loving the product. I mean, and that's the core of it. And they're feeling great in the product and they're feeling great being associated with the brand. So it's just been this gradual, incredible groundswell and they become our best and biggest advocates, which is really so unique in so many ways. We tell those stories online. And people become those advocates and they go out into the community for us. And it's on a micro level. And what's interesting, it's on a macro level too, with some of the biggest influencers and individuals in the world who have embraced the brand.
Paul: And how have you gone about doing that? Are you sponsoring people? Do you do any of this in terms of pre-agreed deals with people? Or is it all coming organically? That's the wonderful, crazy, amazing thing. It's all organic. I mean, it has been from the start. Certainly, you know, we're obviously, you know, if we get in publicity or press, you know, we'll send shoes for shoots and things like that. But it's all very, very organic. Definitely when we have a launch, I mean, obviously we're going out and hoping that certain individuals and influencers are interested in our product and are going to embrace a new silhouette, new technologies, and so on. But that's a dialogue and it's all at the heart of it. It's all authentic. And that's one of the things I think that resonates with our brand with so many people out there in the community. They know it's authentic. They know it's very organic, and that they know the product is at the center of the story every time and that we really care.
Paul: So let's get into the tactics of that. I mean, then when you do a launch, what is it that you guys do? How do you approach that? What are the rules? What don't you do? What do you do? Because it's all well and good just being great and having people talk about it. This is good, but let's get down to a tactical level. Because it is something which you've done very well historically. And I'd love to know, are there red lines that you have in the sand of, yeah, this is the way it's always done for us. This is, we'd never do something like that.
NJ: I don't think we have red lines in the sand. I think one of the things that we do is one, I'd like to say our whole team is incredible. They're so nimble, they're so tactical. It's always a team effort. We have an incredible individual leadings are content in terms of visually. We look at everything and we're very particular about how we portray the brand. And every time we have a launch, I mean, we look at it on a very individual specific basis and say what is the messaging and what do we want to say about this new product, this capsule collection, this partnership, and we get very granular as a team and talk that over and come together and mutually agree on a strategy and a tactic that's right for that particular moment and product. But overall, and I think you've witnessed this, we have an overarching look and feel to our brand. So there's this consistency through the look and feel the voice all the time. We're always saying, you know, this is the APL way, the APL voice, the APL look, and that we represent and how does luxury performance visually and verbally sound and look and how to stay consistent with that.
Paul: Nice. So you mentioned the community. Obviously, you've got hundreds of thousands of followers on social media and various things like that. But do you have a deeper community and how do you show up for those super fans?
NJ: Well, certainly we're communicating in many ways with our VIP community on a one-to-one basis. And we have great SMS, we have great emails. But also, I mean, we're on our different desks. I mean, we're doing chat. We're responding to chat across the board, whether it's in SMS, a loyalty programs, VoIP. And one of the things that we've also done is our store teams at our two flagship stores are actually, because they're such product experts, are also on our chat and responding on a one-to-one basis with all our super fans and our customers. And we're saying, making sure the people with the product knowledge are also having those conversations with our community. And that was something that actually happened COVID because as you know, so many retailers had to close down for many months and we were the same and our team, in-store teams started getting trained on chap, loving it and on the desk and you're getting a real person. You're not getting a bot, you're getting an expert.
Paul: And so you guys are a DTC brand and have been historically, when did you first open your first store and why did you?
NJ: Great question. We opened our first door. Four months before COVID, so it was in November. Nailed it. That was, we didn't know that was coming. Obviously no one else did either. November 2019 in the Grove in Los Angeles. And what's fascinating about the Grove, it is more traffic than Disney World. And we wanted to open our retail stores to have a real world of APL and a true representation of our brand so that consumers from around the world could really experience it the way we envision it and wanted to represent it. So we opened in the Grove. I mean, when you go in, it's almost like a cathedral. It's a museum experience. Our shoes, again, are the hero or heroine in the displays and the units. It's really a wonderful experience. So, and we just opened in New York, our new world of APL or a second flagship at 75 Prince Street in New York. And it's very much the same experience, but different. It's been modified and adjusted to New York City. And that's really important and part of our whole vision for the brand.
Paul: A lot of brands when they do D2C brand that opens up a store. It's almost like a brand raising piece, you know, the revenue that the store and the footfall has is negligible. It's about the opportunity to shout about it and have an experience that people can learn about it. Was that the case for you? Or is this a retail decision? This is this is about actually shifting shoes?
NJ: This is definitely a retail decision, but it's also a decision about; this is the way we should look at retail. This is how we wanna represent ourselves. This is the way we want consumers to experience our brand. And we wanted to control and welcome everybody to the experience in our world so that they would feel a part of it. I think also what's interesting is because both. Both of these locations have so many international consumers that go to the Grove or down in Soho in this highly trafficked area. They're coming in and they're going back and sharing our product, bringing them to other communities around the world and becoming again our advocates. I mean, I happen to be at a big fashion brand party this summer out in Malibu and I was introduced to the princess of one of the Middle Eastern countries and she had discovered our brand at the Grove, had gone back to her country and created this whole groundswell because she was wearing our product, loving it and to your point, you know, becoming one of our biggest advocates and she was so excited to spontaneously meet me because she was one of our super fans.
Paul: That's incredible. And so, I mean, this is like perfect influencer activity just happening organically because of that footfall and just people are getting the eyeballs on your brand. And like you mentioned the fashion party there, like from a collab perspective as well, trying to get that awareness out, done some interesting co-labs that I would probably never have expected whilst looking at it. I mean, we've got American Airlines, certainly to be surprised. F45, that one I'd expect, right? That one makes sense. Williams Racing as well. First of all, before we go into some of the details of those and what came of it, how do you approach the idea of who to collab with and what is it you're trying to get out for the brand?
NJ: Well, I think one of the things that we do about that, and I want to say our co founder Adam Goldston is very, very deeply involved in a lot of these collabs and the thinking behind a lot of them is that. What is synergistic and makes the right partnership and I think lots of brands think about that and we look at things like, is there something that's great that represents the right technology and innovation and do those brands does that because we're a lot about it. Do those brands also have technology, innovation, performance, and where does that marry itself? So that's sort of one of the things that we always look at. We also look at, you know, is it possibly a global brand? Is it the right fit for us? Are we the right fit for them? So, I mean, if you look at our current partnership with the Oracle Red Bull F1 racing team, I mean, It's an incredible partnership because we're both in a, we're both winning brands, I'd like to say that. They're winning, they've had the most incredible year, but it's about performance, technology, on and off the track. I mean, and how we're bringing that to them. And there's that marriage there. And that's sort of, you know, that was obviously one of the things when we did F45, because there's performance in the gym, technology. You look at some of the other things. One of the themes that runs through a lot of what we do and how we make those decisions. I mean, American Airlines, we're talking about luxury and the performance there. One of the other things is our breast cancer awareness shoe that we put out every year. They have a big program with that. There was the synergy there and we worked together every October on that for several years. And that was incredible. So, I mean, we also look at giving back and we also say that's part of some of these partnerships. Are we aligned on our philosophies and what the brands stand for? And that's part of the whole decision making process.
Paul: How does a partnership like that look so if you take the racing team for example Are you making sure that the that the presumably the f1 races aren't wearing APL because they probably have to have some fire Retardant something on their feet. I don't know about it But do you make sure that the guys in the pits are when they when they're in the teams you make sure that they're all Wearing APL. How do you go about making sure that your brand your product shows up alongside the brands in the collabs?
NJ: Well, um, in the pits and off the track, the drivers are wearing our shoes, but in the pits and the whole team. And that goes to them and us working with them, what is the right silhouette for them? What is the right out of our lineup of shoes? What is the right performance shoes that are for them? And then obviously we do a lot of custom color makeups with them and then we also, our consumers are lucky enough when we have some limited edition exclusives that the team is wearing that we're also offering to our consumers and their consumers as well.
Paul: And that's kind of you getting both getting eyeballs on each other's brands, they've got an alternative revenue channel and you're getting exposure to people who may not know about you. Is that right?
NJ: That's absolutely true. But again, I think it goes back to the point that we started with, that it's authentic, that both brands are representing performance, luxury and the consumer, they're so wise these days, they know that. They could see right through something when it's not on point and it doesn't make sense. And that's why we look at these things. But again, it has to align. And I think that's one of the things that we do very well. We're very thoughtful about everything that we do and how we do it. And again, we missed incredible technology and our shoes are so comfortable. I mean, when you're in some of these jobs, uh, whether you're in the pit or, um, some of the, you know, in the, the workout studio or whatever, or you're in something where you're on your feet eight hours a day, you want the comfort. And that's critical. And we offer that. I mean, really we're so far in a way the most comfortable shoe out there are slides, even our slides, our recovery slides. Everyone goes crazy. They put on the slide and they can't believe it because we've got the propelium in the footbed and the comfort. We've thought about all of these things. They could take us a long time to get a product to market. I mean, the, the tech room zip line, it's was two and a half years in development. So we spent a lot of time on product development.
Paul: And how does that look? I mean, like relative to, I mean, some of the big boys that you're going to be coming up against. I know obviously you sit in a more luxe part of the market, but they must have teams and teams of people like how do you stay innovative? I'd love to get a breakdown of how you approach the design of a new shoe.
NJ: Well, it's a very long process, but I will say one of the things that's very special about us is that we have a proprietary library of materials, technologies, things that we're exploring. Adam and Ryan are very, very deeply involved in the design. We do have design teams as well. And we really look at, and there's a lot of inspiration that goes into design, but I mean, when we designed our Streamline Running Shoe, Adam and Ryan had taken a trip to Japan. They walked 13 miles looking for Japanese pancakes and ended up the midsole, the shoe ended up being like 13 layers of Japanese pancakes, cushioning and everything, an inspiration from there. And then that was carried over to the zip line. And the zip line, the one piece upper was inspired by zip lining in Dubai. So I mean, inspiration comes from many places and then the technology and the thought and everything comes together.
Paul: And how do you test them? Do you have a team of testers? Do you have teams of sports people? Like, how do you create that feedback loop? Because I'm always fascinated because the brands that listen the most to their customers always seem to the ones who get it right the most. And that's all well and good, us talking about that and saying, yeah, great, you listen to your customers. But that's hard to do. How do you tactically make sure that you can constantly get those feedback loops?
NJ: Well, there's definitely certain types of manufacturing testing that every product goes through that's very intense. And also, we obviously have wear testing that goes on before a product comes out. So it's the combination of both, because we really have the highest standards out there. And so it's really critical to us. So there's things in the lab, there's so many, there's wear testing, there's people testing, there's like all sorts of things going on where a shoe ever makes it to the marketplace.
Paul: I'm interested in terms of, as you've started to grow this over the past, however many years it's been, you've been the managing partner very, very early on, right? And since day one, you know, you are there at it. Like, how do you approach building and leading a team like this? And obviously, you've, you've scaled a lot since that inception. Like, what are your philosophies around that?
NJ: What's interesting about APL is we almost have everyone who's been with us from the start and we've been building a team. And I think it's our approach that it's a team that has a culture of excellence and innovation. And when someone joins the team, they bought into that. That's what they love. They are personally invested that way, and they have that drive inside themselves. So we have this incredible dialogue that goes on all the time with Inside the Company about everything that we're doing, whether it's design, product development, whether it's the marketing, whether it's social. And I think we spend a lot of time talking and sharing information with each other, but we're also incredible planners. And I think that's one of the things that helps us. We are constantly planning. I would love to, I could hold up the marketing calendar. And we plan Black Friday, Cyber Monday almost like a year in advance. We look at everything in detail and plan so we can get down to the tactics of things and share that. We have meetings about that. And we're also, I think the other thing, and I talk about this a lot, is because we're such a close knit team and work so well together. We're very nimble. That means that when we're doing something and we're studying it and we're all talking with each other, and we say, you know what, I'm not sure something's quite right, we say, we can pivot and change and make those changes quickly and we're not stuck on, well, this is what we said we were gonna do. We say, you know what, this is what we should do. So we do a lot of that and we are very thoughtful that way. And I think because everybody on our team is flexible, wants to innovate, and is willing to change and pivot. That's what helps keep us at the top of our game all the time.
Paul: What's been the hardest part of that journey?
NJ: I think things in the outside marketplace a lot affect the journey and how you respond to that. Because, look, we all see outside factors. I mean, who could have predicted COVID? Then you come out of that, the consumer has changed a little bit. Something takes off and maybe you don't have enough inventory and you have to replan. Messaging what's the right way to message and keep that consistent and how do you pivot as the company pivots. So I think there's a lot of external factors sometimes that as a brand you're responding to that have, and the consumer is changing. So how do you change with that consumer as their needs and their demands and pivot? So I think to me, I don't know what the others would say, I think those are some of the interesting and big challenges, but I know we like to bring those thoughts to each other and discuss them. And so communication.
Paul: Love that. Is that kind of key for you in terms of getting this brand and getting out there? How do you communicate with your team? How big is your team now? How are you able to make sure that you're able to consistently communicate you and what you want to them?
NJ: Well, we, we have regular kind of internal meetings to talk about things and talk them over and a lot of that is also based on the, you know, the product that's coming out, the marketing calendar, how we want to do things. And one of our, my little personal tactics that I love to do, I have two things I love to do. One is have like these mini meetings where it's only 15 minutes or 30 minutes and we talk over key issues. Everyone is sort of together and we strategize and we say, you know, this might be a roadblock. How are we doing that? And we also get into the deep tactical details of how something is being launched, a promotion that we're doing. The store, I mean, the store had over 75 meetings for the new flagship store. I mean, it was very intense and we did that week after week after week. So that was an incredible experience. I also, I know this is my own little productivity thing that I do all the time. It's called the distraction list. I think I'm personally a highly, highly productive person and able to handle a lot in the course of the day. It's a do it now or do it later list, which is called a distraction list. And I use the distraction list tactic all the time with everything that I do. And that is people get distracted every day on the job and with a lot of minutia. You can write anytime these small little things come into your head, you put it on the do it later list and you let that out of your brain and you're not worrying about it and then you do the do it now or the 'A' things during the day and sort through that and that's how you keep yourself centered your company your brand um all the things that need to get done and also i'm a huge planner so i wish i had the calendar in front of me i mean but huge marketing calendars with all the products, different things, everything planned out and the roadmap planned out. But the thing about all that, it's never set in stone. You think it's set in stone, it's not set in stone. You say, okay, we should change, we should talk it over. And that goes back to us being nimble as a team. And as a group, we're saying, you know what, I thought about it, we should move this, we should do that. And everybody knows that if it's changing, it's for the better. So being able to be adaptable, change, and having those organization and productivity skills I think are critical to companies and individuals. I mean, I've done that in other prior roles that I've had. I mean, at one company I was managing 700 like advertising programs at a time. And it came off the calendar, the productivity. And I think for me, that helps me in having structure. But within the structure, it's so important to say, let's be nimble, let's change.
Paul: You've got your brand calendar. If you know that you've got a new product that's coming out on the 30th of January, how far back do you start planning it? Do you always launch in the same way? I'd love to know more about that.
NJ: We definitely set up launches and times for specific dates. Once in a while they get moved a little bit because of certain circumstances. You know, global pandemic. Stuff like that. Absolutely. Like, during the pandemic, I mean, one of the funniest things is, you know, some of our inventory was definitely sitting in the port of Los Angeles. And 1 of our team members lives in Redondo Beach and obviously everybody was home and she would send us pictures of like. We knew we were on ship number 82 in the port and, you know, was it moving or not? I mean, so there were things we couldn't control. So obviously that required shuffling, but I mean, we definitely plan in advance. We talk about the PR strategy. We talk about, um, what is the imagery and the story, what makes this particular product or partnership unique? And then we go to work on all those different elements. And then we plan the date. We talk about things like what should be the launch, what day, what should be the time of the launch. I mean, we usually do things on Tuesdays, but not always. I mean, that's just something that what we've found has been highly productive for our brand. But we're launching a new silhouette on Friday this week, which is something we don't typically do, but we think it's the right decision. So, at this time of year, so it just depends, you know, we look at we're very precise about our SMS, our emails, we've had enormous success in that area and having this very personalized, customized dialogue with our consumers, we have a high returning customer rate. So that's been very, very special and we love that kind of personalization. Again, we're in those chats one-on-one with a lot of those consumers. So if we launch something, something happens, we're responding in real time to them.
Paul: And how often are these limited edition drops?
NJ: Um, you know, it depends. Like this month and during the holidays, we had our limited edition Black Friday collection and that basically sold out. Everybody loved the triple black monotone look. I mean it was the right time of year. Something they'd been waiting for. We had never done a triple black in the zip line, the streamline, and some of the other shoes. We do, we have usually a few each month. So, and we plan it way in advance. I mean, you know, obviously it goes through the design process for the season, which, you know, can take, it's usually nine months to a year before something makes its way into the marketplace, because it's obviously a long process with the shoes. And then we plan it into the calendar way in advance, what's going to release and when.
Paul: Yeah, that makes sense. Do you have super fans who collect them? Does anyone have every APL? Do you have some of these kind of guys?
NJ: We absolutely have people like that are just have like 20, 30, 40 pairs of shoes and they tell our story and love it and love posting about it. I mean, there was someone recently that was dancing around like crazy doing videos with her latest pairs. I mean, they just embrace the brand and we have those incredible super fans and we're grateful for them.
Paul: One of the things that I notice in great brands that just seems universal to them is the generosity that they have to get product into people's hands. And you'll know different people have crossed ways, mentioned products, you're like, I'll send them to you. I'll send them to you. I think I've seen you do it three times and we don't know each other super well, right? So that's like, that's an amazing gauge for me because I always see it, brands that move quickly, brands that get advocacy, they know that their product is the thing that counts. And I think that you do that incredibly well. And that's something that brands should take note on. They tend not to do enough of it. I mean, do you, is this an active thing? Do you have a gifting budget that you're like, yeah, right, we want to shift 100 pairs of shoes a month just to get them in random hands, not PR, not influencers, just we just have a budget to get product out there?
NJ: We don't have like a budget per se. I think what we do is about relationship building. And everything we do is about relationships and partnerships, whether it's synergistic. And also, I mean, a lot of our giving back, I mean, I'm so proud of our company. I mean, one of the things that we've done is, we've had a partnership with the Shelter Partnership because we're based in Los Angeles. And so we've donated product to the homeless community. And there's actually an APL day in Los Angeles, decreed by the mayor October 12th for our large shoe donations. So we were very, very proud of that. We've done Soles for Souls to support a lot of charities. So I think we look at different opportunities, whether it's on the charitable level. And, you know, a lot of times, I mean, sometimes we've given shoes and donated them to someone who's critically ill in the hospital or, you know, it's, we had someone whose parent passed away and their dying wish was to be, you know, have a pair of APLs and they couldn't afford it. So, I mean, we look at things like that and we say we want to do things like that where it's part of the community and we can give back. So I love that part of the brand. And I think our consumer sees that too, in what we're doing. And it's important to consumers now. And also I love most of our shoes are vegans and we're part of Eco-Cart and you know, we're carbon neutral and a lot of these things that are going on. I mean, we pay a lot of attention to all of these kinds of details. And we're machine washable.
Paul: And it's amazing how the cumulative effect of all of these things is, you know, I was trying to push you at the beginning there to be like, come on, tell me what's your secrets in making people say what's APL or oh my god, I love APL, what's the secret there? What's the tactic? And actually, you know, you weren't really able to answer it. But it's like because it's such a cumulative, holistic approach of yeah, get product in people's shoes, be nice to people, care about the environment, get them on the cool people, get them out there. And actually all of these things added together and being machine washable, you know, that's actually how word of mouth happens. There is no single hack. This is hard, long graft that gets you there, and it's that overnight success that word of mouth leads to.
NJ: Right, and it's actually, you know, the overnight success slowly builds and then suddenly you are an overnight success, but it wasn't. It took years to get there. And also it's again, the list every day. It's paying attention to the details every single day. And actually the whole team and everyone caring every single day. Everybody on our team cares. They care about the innovation. They care about the... the excellence, they care about the communication and how we're telling our story. They care about how we're communicating with our consumer. I mean, that's coming from within. If it's coming from within, I really feel the consumer and the community feels it when they experience it. I mean, even just what, you know, the messaging, when you get your shoes inside our box and the envelope and how we talk about our product and how we give care instructions, all of those things. We think about all of those details.
Paul: Incredible. What's next for APL?
NJ: Oh, I think we have a really exciting year ahead. I mean, we have more new silhouettes coming out. Potentially, you know, some new partnerships. I think just the opening recently of our new flagship store, it's literally, I think today is a month. So it's been happening. So, you know, watching us enter into and have a flagship in the world of APL in New York City. And, it's incredible. So I think lots of things are going to be happening in New York, just because more and more, just because of our presence there. And we're going to continue, we're continuing to push the technology and the innovation envelope. So I think you're just going to see more, I know you're going to see more and more, I don't think, I know you're going to see more and more from us.
Paul: Incredible. And how can people learn more about you and APL?
NJ: Well, go to our website, athleticpropulsionlabs.com. And we have a lot of our stories there, including all the details on the different products, the tech sheets, et cetera. Me, I guess I'm on LinkedIn, if you wanna know more about me. And I think we constantly have so much press coming out about the brand. I mean, we've been on Oprah's favorite things list. You know, we made them consistently make the Women's and Men's Health best shoe list all the time. So, I mean, we're constantly being reviewed by so many publications and journalists and press out there. I mean, there's just story after story.
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