Paul - I'm going to start with you Claudia. You're an OG, so you've been in this industry for a while and you've seen a lot of changes. Like, what has been the biggest change, what's been the biggest shift that you've seen?
Claudia - I think, you know, no one would ever say COVID was a positive thing. However, I think it probably sped things up. I think that even things about how we work is a good one to start with, because that drives a lot of how we behave. So pre-COVID, even really forward thinking businesses sort of said, oh, you know, we have really flexible working, you know, and they didn't. When we look at how we work now, it wasn't flexible. Being allowed to go home a couple of hours early on a Friday wasn't really flexible working. And I think, you know, COVID came and we had to adapt. However big or small you were, your ability to survive really came down to your agility. And actually sort of, we had a conference quite quickly after COVID when we were allowed to bring everybody together because there was this need to reconnect, I think. And I played a song, not my favorite song, before anyone worries. And it was Daniel Bedingfield, because all I kept saying on every call was we've just got to get through this. Literally. Because there was no benchmark. There was no one you could call and say, when this last happened, what did you do? So I think coming out of COVID, for retail particularly, which is obviously where I live, shops, everybody fell back in love with going out and going to shops. I think everybody became quite insular. Everybody bought a new sofa, everybody built a gazebo, it felt like. B&Q didn't have any rockery equipment, not that I was building a rockery. And I think this need to go out F&B, thank goodness, had that spike. And people wanted to interact. So I think as well as speeding up some of the inevitable about how we shop and how we work and how we interact with people, there was a bit of a balancing pond. And I think that was quite healthy. That was one of the healthy things that came out of COVID. And since then, I think it is balancing is probably the thing because there was a real spike in certain industries where an event brand wasn't the best time for us. But then we came out of COVID and we had the most amazing year because all of those weddings, all of the racing, all of the Christenings, all of the graduations, all of the holidays that had been cancelled. And I think everybody was in that real, I deserve to treat myself. I've got through this. And so I am gonna have that handbag that I've been lovingly looking at online or I am gonna have that extra holiday. So I think people have come out of that sort of COVID into this celebratory I deserve. And now we're sort of finding a normal, a normalcy.
Verity - I mean, obviously we're here to talk about community, two legend brands when it comes to building a community. I think now we're moving away from talking about building one. And it's, you know, it's more than just having a community now. It's about obviously monetizing your community, engaging them. Over the last few years, I don't know, social commerce has meant that things don't work the way they used to, like there's no cheap clicks anymore, cost of customer acquisition is just ridiculous. I mean, for both of you, where if a brand is just getting started with this, trying to cultivate a community, where do they start in terms of moving away from traditional marketing to kind of bringing these groups of people together?
Katie - First of all, I think I'm a huge advocate, pun intended, of a completely full funnel approach to marketing. So even the phrase move away from traditional marketing, I think is probably something that we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater on. I feel like traditional marketing absolutely has a place. In fact, tomorrow for Abercrombie, we're going to be launching a digital out of home campaign on the Tube because we know that people need to be aware of brands. They need to start to consider brands in a way that they haven't in the past. So traditional marketing absolutely still has a role in my opinion. But I think moving also with where your consumers are moving and understanding how they are interacting and how they are engaging is really important and the place that you start there is with the people who already love you. So there are bound to be people out there who are already tagging you organically because they love your brand and because they love what you have to offer. So starting, it's almost like starting at the easiest place with people who already advocate for you and then building proactive relationships with them where you bring them in to part of your brand community. You make them feel welcome and special because that's what part of a community is being. Whether it's a teeny tiny community, you and your best mates on WhatsApp or Instagram, whatever, or whether it's a community of thousands of brand advocates, you are special and you're a part of that community and that means a lot to humans generally.
Verity - Absolutely. What do you think has been the biggest impact for Abercrombie sort of with your community in terms of brand sentiment, brand advocacy?
Katie - I think the biggest impact really has been the scale at which we've been able to tell our transformation story. So I think we have been for the last, honestly, five years trying to rebuild the brand to change who we are and what we stand for. But what we knew we couldn't do was go out there and tell people, Hi, we're Abercrombie, we're different. We've changed. We're now a lot better than we used to be. You need to believe this because we are telling you this. And I think they're. It really was a sort of a the long game and it was using and trusting creators who were going to help us spread that word to do it in a deliberate and a slow way. But that meant that we put the we put the narrative of the brand in their hands. And I think to what Matt was talking about earlier giving the creators that responsibility and that trust is risky, right? That is not that's not an easy thing to sort of, especially as the people who are the guardians of the brand. That's the last thing you want to do is give it over to the people you don't know, but who seem to quite like you. But you've got to do that because if you don't allow others to advocate for you and on your behalf, it's significantly more inauthentic at the risk of vexing Matt by using the most used word of twenty three. But it is about authenticity.
Claudia - I completely agree and you know I know we don't want to use the word authentic but maybe real I you know I think a lot of these things are overused but I think when you think about community it's the realness that I think sets it apart and when I certainly think of the people that we work with it starts in a certain way and it does grow quite organically and they do become almost, I hate the friends of the brand, sounds a bit random, but they are like friends. And you know, we have this relationship, I think relationship's another thing. So we see them in real life, you know, if we have events they come to that. We start to know them as people. And that's wonderful because they become extensions of the brand, but they also give you a different view on things. So I think we can learn as much from them as almost we can steer and guide them.
Paul - And if you think about it kind of like tactically, how do you do that? You know, the sort of harnessing your super fans, one of the biggest trends that people are talking about this year. I know Abercrombie advocacy is one of the pillars, like one of your values, which I think that makes sense. I know with LK Bennett, you've got a huge amount of sustainability approaches out there, bring people close to the brand. How are you guys tactically getting ahead of that? Like what are the behaviors that you've had to maybe change or really kind of hammer through to make sure that this becomes a part of your brand part of your strategy going forward?
Claudia - I think for us, we're affiliates and the program that we have, we have the L.K. Bennett style collective. I think we have had a situation where people have a definite opinion on the brand and it helps us change that because diversity is something that you can direct through who you employ and how you go out and how you behave but it's very hard to force a diverse view on yourself and your brand from other people. However, if you give the gift of control to the affiliates and to the advocates, then they do that for you. And that's a wonderful thing because I think if you can give someone a dress and say, over to you, by default, they will make it look different. So we can definitely have the backbone of saying we have a very good sustainable policy, we have very ethical you know, supply chain, we have all of those things that are in our control. So you can buy into this brand. You can feel comfortable to be, you know, part of us. But then how you then demonstrate that to the wider audience is the power, I think, of giving that control over.
Katie - I have an amazing team of experts who are brilliant at building relationships with creators. The problem is that they are so good at building those relationships that actually they haven't got enough hours in the day to build a relationship with millions and millions of people. So, and it's important though that they build those core relationships with, let's call it our VIP brand ambassadors, because that human connection actually is really important because the human connection with the ones that are the biggest advocates of your brand, the biggest brand lovers if they authentically really love you and connect with you and connect with the humans in your company who are trying to build relationships with them, then their desire to spread that ripple effect across all of their communities that, you know, there'll be somebody else who's in their community that has a community with someone else. And that diagram you showed earlier, almost like the, I hesitate to use the word spit web, but you know what I mean, in terms of how the impact gets out there is really, really important. But again, that's limited by the amount of bandwidth of those experts that you have in your team. So this is probably where super honestly someone like Duel comes in, because in order to have that platform, in order to help you scale that advocacy is really important. But if you're a smaller brand starting off, the human impact, the human element of building those relationships is where you start. And then as that gets bigger and bigger and bigger, you need to bring in a platform, an external platform that will help you. But building those relationships is really the crux of it, I think.
Paul - How do you, like, obviously there's been a few press PR questionable parts over the past couple of years. Yeah. ANF have somehow just continued to grow, like looking at your stock price and things like that. Like, I don't know how any brand could have survived those things, but you have, and this must be a part of it. How have you actually managed to maintain those relationships when something comes out, say, you know, we're different. Like I'd love to get into a little bit, if you're comfortable talking about it, because I know that may not be.
Katie - Well, it'd be a bit awkward now if it wasn't. No comment. In all honesty, I think the key to understand it is that transformations don't happen overnight. So this transformation of the brand and the company has been in the works for years. So we got a new CEO called Fran in 2017. And it really does start from the top and she transformed the company's values. And what that really meant was that everyone in the company understood that they were on this journey of transformation that meant that the company and the brands within the company were going to become a place of inclusivity, of belonging, and really the antithesis of where the company used to be. So that started a long time ago. And then what she brought into the company, which really resonates throughout and therefore goes to the relationships with the creators as well, is this notion of transforming our product, voice and experience. So at the end of the day, we all sell products. So that is the game of retail. And the product needed to be transformed in order to start to appeal to this millennial target. So the millennial target was not actually interested in buying the skinny jean or the big logo hoodie anymore. That was the days of the past and actually understanding that this target lives for a long weekend but also has work to go to and wants to have a capsule wardrobe where they can find something that they can wear to work, that they can then dress up to go out in the evening and then have some staples that they are going to be able to wear at the weekend as well, whether that is going on a mini break to have an experience that is at that wonderful stage of life where you haven't necessarily got dependency yet or you're discovering travel, you're really enjoying being with your friends. But understanding what those product needs were was really important for deciding what the brand stood for. So the product assortment was overhauled and that's ultimately where it started. Then we talk about voice. So the voice then had to go along with what we meant, what it meant to be to be this new brand. So the voice was going to be one of inclusivity. The voice was going to be one of belonging. And the voice of the brand is not just what we say, but it's how we come across. So all of the marketing imagery was completely overhauled. We made sure that we were representing each and every person that was going to be buying our products or that we wanted to be buying our products and that we weren't just one single, one dimensional portrayal of what is out there. And then I think the experience is actually a lot to do with the stores. So one of the first things that the new CEO came in and did was turn the lights on. Like crazy as that sounds. And you may remember, I'm sure none of you are as old as I am, but there used to be very dark stores, used to be naked torso men outside of them. And you know, it sounds silly, but like, got rid of all that, turn the lights on, make it somewhere where people want to come in, they want to shop, it is a lovely experience. It's somewhere where it feels much calmer than it used to be and let the product sing with the lights on them. So I think long story short, so that was a very long answer, but the point is it wasn't overnight. It was a really authentic journey of transformation into who we want to be. And I think the creators feel that. There's no need to tell them because it's kind of like, show, not tell.
Paul - Amazing, yes. Could it be one of these things that Harvard Business Review talk about for years to come? I think it's been very impressive. So well done.
Verity - Well, one of the questions that we got from the audience today, just thinking about your creators and your community, how do you keep re-energizing them? Like, what are some of the things that you guys are doing with your community, your creators, influencers, to keep them engaged and staying with you?
Claudia - I think for us, it's about including them in things that are happening in the brand. So it's not, when I use the word relationship, I mean that quite sincerely. So, For example, we're just refreshing our trainer launch because it's not something we're known for. So it's good to sort of do a call out on that. So again, sort of getting people involved and saying, okay, here's the competition for this month, or this is really what we want you to focus on. Obviously, here are some ideas, but then giving quite a loose framework because I think we've said, if you're too prescriptive, you're just gonna get a version of what you'd have done yourself. And that's not the benefit of this. And we were talking earlier about one of the people that we went with through you Who did this wonderful thing on she basically just wears dresses, which is great We sell a lot of dresses so that helps very happy marriage there but things that are practical like how to wear a dress in the winter and That's not something that everybody necessarily thinks through and that might be the difference between someone thinking I love it, but I'll wait to, oh no, I'll love it and I'll buy it now because someone has shown me how I get the longevity out of that. And I think sometimes when you work in your industry, you assume everybody looks at it the way you do. So many years ago I worked for Habitat when it was part of the IKEA Icarno group. The example I'll give is 95% of the sofas that we sold were in the color that was in the showroom or the color that was on the website. And at one point we had 250 made to measure options from every color of leather to every boot clay. And we assumed everybody had the creative ability to look at a beige sofa and go, but in lilac velvet, this is what it will look like. And people didn't tend to do that. So I think that's the thing. There are a lot of people that will look at the picture on your website or how you have decided to present something. And if that's not for them, That's it, it's not for them. Whereas I think the ability of the influencers and the advocates and the community is to say, I've taken this, but I've done something quite different with it. And that's incredibly powerful when you talk about monetizing something.
Paul - It's one of those things that's like a big opportunity for a lot of brands who are getting that content, but it often just doesn't really do much with it. It's like, well, how do I make sure that this lands on our product display pages? How do I surface UGC or Create Content in store, which is something which I've very rarely seen? Or even just simply retargeting ads, you still get chased by that same pitch of that image with a white background. And it's like, well, I've seen that already. But if every single time I saw an ad, it was a different person who could have looked and smelled a bit like me wearing the same thing in a different outfit, it would be that thing that nudges on. I think it's just a lot of potential as people go deeper and deeper into this world.
Claudia - I think that, you know, whether it's conscious or unconscious, we go to places that are like us or we think are for us. And it's very hard for brands to be everything to everybody because you can't. But that's where somebody taking your product, your dress, your shoes, and saying, but this is what I would do with it. It does that job for you. So it's incredibly healthy and to be encouraged. We were talking about, we did a charity tie in with the crisis through November, and we invited a lot of the community to that because that's a nice thing. That's almost a way of saying thank you, but also sort of involving them in that story. So you don't have to be really, make sure you say this, make sure you say that, because they all understood the benefit to the charity of that. And again, those stories along with the actual product, is what we want people to go out and talk about.
Verity - Can you see yourselves, I mean, we've mentioned it already this morning in terms of bringing more creators in-house. Do you see yourselves expanding on some of these things that you're doing already to further bring them in on more creative decisions and yeah, just bringing more in-house creators?
Katie - Ideally, yes. I think, to be honest, we're at this stage at the moment where we are figuring out how we make them feel part of a community. And one of the ways in which to do that is to give them the opportunity to give us advice. And I think there has to be a healthy dose of humility when you get to that stage. And even in this, this goes back then to the question about trust and do you want to give over control, et cetera? If the people who already love your brand and tagged you organically in the beginning are saying something that you don't like hearing about your brand, then you need to listen to that because they are your brand lovers. They are the people that were there for you at the very beginning and are helping you to tell your story. So I think inviting them in, whether that's to create with us or to explain something to us about why they're saying they don't like it is extremely important.
Verity - Yeah, that's so powerful. Not many brands are open to that though.
Claudia - I think the whole thing is about creating choice, isn't it? And I think, yes, bringing people in-house is interesting. I think what you'd have to just be very mindful of is they then don't become too ingrained that you get that same thing, because obviously that's the real benefit of it, is that if you think it's two circles, they sort of overlap, but they haven't come completely, they're not part of the brand, they're not, well this is how we do it, and this is what we want to achieve, and this is how, they're saying, okay, well I get this, but again, I'm putting my personal spin on it. And I think, yeah, I think a good blend, like everything. I think the more blended you can be, and the more choice you can give without diluting your brand values. I mean, you want to stand for something, but I think choice is a great one. So I think there will be opportunities. It's a bit like, should we have our product and design director here today? And we will often bring somebody into design a capsule part of something, and that's really healthy because however wonderful you are as a designer, you have a handwriting. So bringing someone in to give a different flavor is, I think, to be encouraged.
Paul - Amazing, it's like some of the fast fashion brands bringing in the sort of the influences to be the creative director, and it seems to just have quite a lot of endearing effect on it as well. What have we got coming in on mum's iPad?
Verity - I'm a bit worried about using this. We have How do you persuade people internally that social is a commercial platform now and that it can be achieved hand in hand with true brand storytelling?
Katie - Should I give it a whirl? I think the term social commerce comes at the end of a longer sentence, which is that social awareness leads to advocacy, which leads to social commerce. So I think it's really easy to think social commerce means that you get creators to get other people to buy your gear. And actually what needs to happen more over time is that you build that, I call it in old school language, upper funnel awareness, in order that you create brand love and brand consideration, which means that someone talking about your brand may then lead to a transaction, but we mustn't confuse social advocacy with making a sale. I think the two are very important, but different. What do you think?
Claudia - It's interesting. I don't know whether you need to really convince anyone, because I think it's proven but I think sometimes it's about I quite like the new old new because it is really like when you went out and said okay I love that dress where's it from and I'm gonna take that idea and I'm gonna go off and I'm gonna buy it so these are things that have always existed and I think you're right you don't want to you don't want to make the link too strong that you can anyone would understand that the more you can get your brand out there, your product out there, the more positive opinions that can be shared can only be a good thing. And even as you say, even challenge, challenge is healthy. I mean you wouldn't want something brand destroying, but I think the challenge is healthy.
Verity - What role do you see your communities playing in the brand resale space and what level of control are you looking to have in resale?
Claudia - I think it's all healthy. I think to thrive in today and the future, you can't shut anything down. You can't control it. So if anything, encourage it. So we have a couple of different approaches. For resale, we work with thrift. So actually, that sits very nicely with our circular fashion objectives that we want to do. We don't work in fast fashion. We don't expect you to throw your clothes away. We expect you to either love them and have them in the wardrobe and get them out on special occasions or actually every day because they're gorgeous. But it's an investment. So actually, I don't have a problem if once you've decided it's enough for you, you go on and you sell that again. I can't say it because we haven't done it yet. We are looking at working with someone else as well in the resale market but I think it's really healthy. I was a big vintage buyer in my earlier, sort of late teens, early twenties. And I think there's nothing more lovely than finding a beautiful vintage jacket or a piece of amazing jewelry or beautiful scarf. Some of my favorite scarves are things that I've collected over the years. And I'd love to think that in 20 years, or 10 years, or five years, or next year, someone's buying somebody else's LK Bennett and they have that same level of excitement, maybe that's how you buy into the brand. So we encourage resale through Frift, you get the bags, it doesn't have to be LK Bennett, you can get gift vouchers, you can donate to charity. So it's up to you again, it goes back to that choice. I don't wanna dictate how you do it. And we also do borrowed, and I know that wasn't the question, but I think rental is another thing. I think you can't dictate how people interact with your brand, but what you can do is open up the avenues for them to be able to do it.
Verity - Absolutely. And how do you bring your community into the resale space? I mean, I'm pretty sure I've seen a friend of mine who's an influencer and she created something with Thrift and LK Bennett. Is that something that you guys?
Claudia - Yeah, I mean, we would encourage, you know, our even our team members in house, you know, that that's almost where the advocacy starts. So we would encourage them. So we launched it with them before we launched it publicly. Because again, you know, we do ask our teams to wear our clothes when they're at work. Our head office team get a nice allowance if anybody wants to come and work at LK Bennett. Because actually we want you to love the brand and part of working for a fashion company, we don't demand it, it's not compulsory, you don't have to come in when you come in wearing it. But I love it. And that's a big part of working for the brand and actually encouraging people to pass that on is everything from anyone who shops with us, anyone who works with, and the community. So yeah, we would embrace that as part of what we're talking about.
Verity - It makes such a huge difference. I remember working at Whistles, and we had such a great staff allowance, and the feeling of pride that you got, and picking out your uniform, obviously that you're wearing every day, and I kept some of those pieces for many, many years, and then, yeah, just finally had to kind of let them go, but hopefully someone else is now enjoying that.
Paul - Absolutely. So I think that's that engaging with your employees has been such a huge channel that I don't think very many brands do that well. I worked with Topshop just before the imminent collapse and remember no one in the room from the leadership were wearing Topshop and the discount they gave us 25% and like your student discount was 30% and it's just kind of it's just you could see this as falling apart and I always like refer to like Lululemon as the example of one of the best bonds who do it because like the way that you know that someone from Lululemon's in the room, as I've already told you, and they're head to toe in Lululemon. And they still are, like, we've got a bunch of people who work at Duel, we're also Lululemon, and they're still head to toe in Lululemon, they've not worked there for like five years. And it's this kind of like baked in advocacy, which they truly believe in, they love it. And if you don't, if you're not a walking billboard for the company you work for, and your employees aren't that, then actually, well, who else would be? Who could you expect? And so I think it's a huge part of it.
Katie -I think you can take that a step further as well. So one of the things that we are very lucky to have our very, very engaged store employees in our stores in the UK, particularly in our St James's Quarter, Edinburgh store. And they are just the right target. They are Gen Z, young, vibrant, and they create content, TikTok content that we put on our global brand handle. So the people in the Edinburgh store are being seen by millions across the globe. And I think giving them that opportunity and listening to their voice and projecting that as part of the brand and who we are and opening the doors to the company as well as the brand is also something not to be afraid to do.
Paul - It comes back to that sort of generosity piece that we talked about earlier. And also, even just finance teams can't think of gifting products as something which is just a cost of goods. This is an investment in our brand in the future. And I think that kind of reframing it from absolutely at the core of the way that you operate as a business to make sure your employees have it for free and as much as they possibly can and for their friends and family and for creators and to gift everywhere. It just becomes such a part of that becoming a part of your brand narrative.
Katie - Yeah, but they're still in finance. So that's a difficult now. That's true. Finance for a reason. Exactly. No offense. Yeah, no offense.
Verity - Katie, you started to touch on this earlier, but how do you recommend building these communities with little budget as a startup?
Katie - I think it goes back to the literally go and figure out who is tagging you organically. Because what you're doing then is it's almost like free brand love. Because these people are tagging you without you asking them to. And harnessing that brand love and making them feel special, making them feel part of a community, even if it's only a community of 10, like then call them VIPs, you know, that make people feel special and already go where the low hanging fruit is. I think that's the best way.
Claudia - Well, with your help for us comes through our website. So you're already visiting us. And actually what we find is the love that people have for the brand or the product then translates, you can see it, it comes through in how they describe it, how they wear it, how they post it. So I think that if you can work with people that already have an affinity for your brand, It almost makes it very, very seamless. And as I say, that then I think allows you to relinquish some of that control. That's not to say that our wonderful creative team don't check everything, but I don't think it's curated to the point that it becomes unsincere. I think it is pretty much what we receive. And I think that's how it should be. If you're talking about having a community, a community by default is lots of different people doing different things. So you shouldn't try too hard to sort of channel everybody down the same road. Agree.
Paul - Amazing. Now, with one minute to go, passing thoughts, what are you excited about for the next couple of years when it comes to social commerce and for fashion and community?
Katie - I think listening to a lot of what Matt was saying about the way in which the platforms are going to evolve, I'm really excited to understand how creators are going to change the game and we as brands have to change with them. Because I think following how they shop, how they interact, how they speak and how they are authentically forming relationships themselves is going to be really important. So this notion of private communities, what does that mean? Does that mean a WhatsApp group of 10 people? Does that mean community of 5,000 people that actually they all really know each other well, what does the nature of private community look like in combination with what impact will AR AI have on that? I've no idea to the answer but I'm excited to find out.
Claudia - Pretty much the same I think any change is exciting. I think you have to embrace it, you should embrace it. I think the power that we've seen in the relatively short time we've been working with you on it of the different scope and reach and stretch is incredible. It's absolutely incredible and it becomes something that we want to talk about more, we want to do more with that. And I think for any brand, you want to be out there to as many people as possible and this is a really really good way of doing that.
Paul - Amazing. Well, Claudia and Katie, thank you so much.
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