Paul: And so this is about creators at the core, how brands harness influence for growth. And so please can Stacie, Taylor and Janna join me on the stage?
Welcome, thanks a lot. Last one of the day. Please give us a quick intro to who you are, what you do, what brand you're with.
Stacie: I'm Stacie from the Abercrombie team.
Taylor: Hi everyone, I'm Taylor Cameron. I'm from Victoria Secret and I'm the Director of Public Relations and Events.
Janna: Hi everyone, I'm Janna. I am the Head of Brand at Grüns more recently. I just left Brooklinen and I was the Head of Influencer & Partnerships for the five and a half or so years.
Verity: Amazing. Yeah, so as Paul said, we really wanted to tap into, you know, you guys – because obviously you work for some really forward thinking brands and… just around how you develop engaging content that converts, creative content specifically.
So just going to put that question out to all of you. We've already talked today, mentioned about how stuff moves really quickly in this space. How are you guys staying ahead within your brands on like, on adapting new content formats, especially within spaces that drive Social Commerce?
Stacie: We've already talked about like TikTok Shop. I don't know whether that's a big one, as it always is when we have these. I think for us, it's very important to keep up with not only the emerging social platforms, but also new offerings within some of the current platforms. So whenever there are opportunities to be a part of Alpha and Beta programs for things like YouTube Shop or TikTok Shop, we are always very quick to jump on those opportunities.
You know, even if the platforms are not completely fleshed out yet and there are still some tweaks, it's always great to be able to work with the platforms themselves to provide feedback. And then if they eventually get, you know, rolled out officially to the public, we're kind of the first in line and have already had experience working with those platforms.
Taylor: I think for us it's being a consumer of culture. There's a really fun team at VS, it's like the Pop Culture Task Force. And so – it's a lot of the team in the audience, but just being passionate about not only the brand, but culture in general and consuming media constantly. So I feel like we're constantly sending each other stuff, patterning the industry, looking at what other brands are doing, looking at what's happening in different industries, and how it could translate to fashion. So I think just consuming as much as you can and seeing how you can use that for your brand. And then taking those and testing and trying and having fun with it to try to unlock new things that might work for your brand.
Janna: Yeah, I know someone spoke about this earlier, but I think it's just not siloing yourself. For a brand like Brooklinen, we came at the approach like everyone sleeps. So you don't really want to just work with lifestyle influencers. You have the opportunity to really test amongst so many different verticals, and that just really opens up the playing field for you.
Verity: Have you guys considered the new Instagram algorithm changes and how that might impact? Obviously, we talked about it before with Lia and obviously there's two different sides to it. Obviously, for the smaller creators it's great, for some of the bigger ones maybe not. But in terms of them favoring original content and content that's not been reposted, are you thinking about that yet in terms of how that might impact your strategy?
Stacie: I can start, I think about it more so in how it's gonna affect the brand, the creator relationship. I think a lot of times we have, as the brand, are really put in a position to have to pay a premium for a lot of these higher macro creators that every other brand wants to work with and that are viewed as more aspirational, and we pay to play. And if their efficacy is going down, then I think brands might have more of the upper hand again in terms of negotiating and it gives you as a brand a lot more of an opportunity to stretch your budget and to really get to see what's working versus, like, having to work with just a specific amount of people.
Taylor: Yeah, I think we're experiencing that right now. Historically, we had worked with really macro creators, right? And I think about supermodels that we worked with and they were our creators and our influencers for so long. And as we see that shift happen, it's freed up the ability for us to work with, you know, more emerging creators, nano creators.
For the first time, we're testing different like you talked about earlier states like non-indemic spaces and different types of creators, but I think for us it's having that constant strategy mix of making sure you're still reaching those awareness tactics and capabilities through upper funnel influencers, as well as the influencers that are converting for sales.
And then when you're talking about original content, I mean, we think about having fun and entertainment. We think about, you know, people are coming to TikTok to be entertained and they're looking for content and that's what's being prioritized is the fun stuff.
Paul: How do you translate your brand into entertainment? And it's not just like selling, selling, selling.
Stacie: Yeah, agree with both of those points. I think with, I mean, when I just think about Abercrombie, it was really the reinvention was not done by mega level influencers or celebrities. It was really through the power of micro and nano influencers. So I think it's, I think it's a great thing, honestly. And I think, you know, utilizing those micro creators and smaller creators who have those audiences who are likely more engaged than some of the mega creators is a great thing.
Paul: So, interested to kind of see how it all plays out.
Stacie: Yeah, absolutely.
Paul: So, actually Stacie, so on that same topic, it's come from more grassroots. What was your favorite content collaboration? Who was it with? What were the results? And why do you reckon it worked so well?
Stacie: It's a great question. We've done quite a few. I think probably my favorite campaign that we've done would have to be our Denim Your Way campaign from 2021, a few years ago.
So really, denim has been the category that has really brought Abercrombie back to life, got us back into the eyes of consumers. And there was so much viral content on TikTok about our jeans. So what's funny is that, those jeans were created by our customers. It was really through listening to customer feedback, talking to influencers, and hearing what their audiences were saying. That's how the viral jeans were created.
So we wanted to take a little bit of a different approach than what we've ever done for one of our big fall denim campaigns. And we opened an entire casting call to the public to be a part of our denim campaign. We just had like a brief questionnaire. If anyone wanted to be a part of the denim campaign, why do you want to be a part of it? Why would you want to partner with Abercrombie? We had thousands and thousands of responses that were actually read through by our team. Took very many days, I can say, but they were really deeply emotional and just powerful stories about people who never thought that they would be able to fit in Abercrombie jeans and never in a million years imagined that they would be able to model for an Abercrombie campaign.
And then we actually narrowed it down to 10 folks, brought them to New York, and shot our denim on them. So showcasing the denim on all different sizes and body shapes and different types of people, abilities. And it really, that campaign itself went viral. And I think it kind of just kickstarted the whole new re-imagined Abercrombie. And it sold a lot of jeans.
Paul: And that's what counts. The commerce in social.
Yeah, just remember that one there. And actually for you guys, so something you'd tell us, like worst and best viral moment.
Taylor: I think there's been a ton. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like for us, like truly influencers is relatively new at Victoria's Secret. I mean, we worked with our large campaign talent, but until 2020, we never paid anyone in terms of the creator space, it was all organic. So I think we're still learning a ton in terms of like how to go viral. I think, you know, when you look at brand turnarounds, like Abercrombie's done a really great job and they're really far in their journey and we're kind of in the midst of it.
And so using creators for that, I think, you know, we did partnerships with Remy Bader that went really viral, which were really fun for our PINK brand. On the VS side, we've had tons of different creators go viral. What's even actually interesting is it's not creators we've paid, but we just see like, viral things about our panties go viral on TikTok. And so it's like jumping on those trends and sending the creator a new product when we have it. So I think it's also just like observing what's going viral is really fun for us too.
Paul: How about you, Janna?
Janna: Yeah, for us – so, we've done a ton of testing on different YouTube verticals. And Cole here, she manages this campaign. And we had a creator. We, you know, we reached out. We want to work with them. We like their content. We don't often get like, huge insight into everyone's bedroom like that's kind of intrusive, but we asked them what products they want if we send them the products. Expecting like; they had, we sent them sheets like they have a bed to put the sheets on. They send the product, they send their content back and they don't have a bed – like they've put the sheets on a futon, I believe it was. And we were like, okay. Well, let's just get it live and see what happens.
It was like, the revenue was insane from her. And I; oftentimes like when we had a new CEO come in at Brooklinen and he like, didn't quite understand what we had been doing, I told him that story just to say, like you just never know what's gonna work and you just have to trust in the creators and that's the only way you're gonna get the job done.
Paul: Have you ever had a scenario, because we've talked a lot today, as for anyone actually who's got an opinion on it, a scenario we've talked a lot about – you know, you need to give away control to creators, to customers, so you get that authentic narrative. But what's the flip side of that? When can that be too far, for example?
Is there a scenario when someone tells your brand story wrong? And actually, if that does happen, how do you get around it? Or should we just give away controls? Let them do our work for us?
Stacie: I think it's got to be a happy balance. I think it's important to have some brand guidelines that ground who the brand is. We have some basic do's and don'ts that we have with our influencer briefs. But then it's free to put that message out there in a way that's creative and authentic to your channel specifically. So I think just having a happy balance between some things that would be the indefinite no-nos, things not to say or to do, with letting them flex into their own creativity.
Taylor: I totally agree. And I think, especially with like intimates and lingerie, it's also everyone's experience is different. And so giving them the creative control, and that's what's the best about creators is they take your products and translate it to their life. And that's why they're successful, especially for us, is that the way that it's shown in a campaign is very practical. It's a bra, panty, on model versus when you see a creator – she's showing you how to style it. She's showing, does it pass the t-shirt test? So I think to Stacie’s point, there's parameters, but I also think there's almost two different types of content.
Sometimes we ask influencers to create something for their channel that's going to work and resonate with their audience, and then maybe contracting them to do something specific for our channels that we know will perform really well in terms of a series that we're working on. So I think there's a balance and a need for both.
Janna: Yeah, I very much agree with both of them. I've never been in the camp of you telling a directive exactly to an influencer, because at that point, you might as well just create it in-house. So we very much have always divided by the do's and don'ts. I also think it's your job as a marketer to make sure you're selecting the right people. Like we're saying, they don't have to be on brand, but they do have to be brand safe. And if you're making those intentional selections, then oftentimes you do feel like you can put the trust in them to create the content that is okay to be out there.
Verity: And on the other side of that, Stacie, obviously we talked about it this morning around getting the buy-in from senior leaders to, you know, you're giving that control to the creators to tell your story. I mean, Taylor, Janna, how have you? How have you gone about that?
Taylor: Yeah, I think that it's a lot about education, right? And like the benefit of what they bring in the value that they offer for the brand. And so I think especially with intimates too, it's translating how it would fit for our customers. So I think like, leaning into the customer and why it's valuable for them is always important. But I think it's, especially for a legacy brand like Victoria's Secret, and as we've gone through brand transformation; it's definitely been a lot of education along the way of like the number of creators we should be working with versus the number we had been working with or how you use them, where they show up on your channel.
So it's a constant journey. And I think we're really lucky that we have a leadership team now that's super excited about it, and they're excited to test and learn. But I think it's also going back to the data of what are they driving for you and what is their value there, and using those as anchors to help drive the why behind them.
Janna: Yeah, agreed. I've always been very fortunate that I've had leadership that very much believe in influencer marketing. Brooklinen, for example, was known as the internet's favorite sheets and like that was because of all the work that we did to make it so prevalent on the internet and to make sure it was known; like, we are an approachable brand, we don't take ourselves too seriously and, because of that, there hasn't been too much need for me to really educate upwards. And then we were also very fortunate that we did have the data to back it up but we saw the revenue coming in, we were able to correlate our channels along the customer journey and to be able to see like how effective influencers were in really driving the customer along.
Paul: We talked about, you've actually mentioned the quantity of creators a number of times just then. Hannah was talking about the way she's doing with her community crossover into this. How many creators could or should a brand work with? Is this a percentage of their customer base that you think is there a goal? Is there a top out at hundreds, thousands?
How would you advise people who are trying to scope this out to think about it?
Taylor: Yeah, it's a good question. I feel like it's kind of a trick question too, right? Because with TikTok Shop and LTK and things like that, people are already talking about your brand and they're already creating content and they're already doing it out there. So I think it's more of a matter of the brand tapping into it.
And I think, in terms of VS, we had always operated as a content campaign strategy where we were contracting influencers for content for campaigns to promote a launch and we're shifting and learning more about the commerce space and how that strategy needs to be always on. You need to have tons and tons of content flooding people's feed and finding that balance.
Stacie: So when you think about a content strategy, sure you might achieve your goals with 15, 20 influencers. When you look at the commerce side, that amount is not gonna translate to sales. You need thousands of influencers and I think that's where our different communities of influencers have developed is like reaching the scale that we need to drive like meaningful value for our business and so, you know our goals, you know, would get to that place where you have thousands of creators in a program, but then keeping, you know, those content campaigns and strategies too.
Taylor: Yeah, it's it's kind of like a pyramid. You should have really that foundation of the always on where you're sampling, always reaching out to new people, but maybe not necessarily contracting everyone and then that next layer would be whatever amount that you're able to have to specifically be contracted to drive sales. And then maybe you have that smaller layer who are contracted creators specifically to make great content that you'll use on your page channels. And then maybe you have a top tier that's just those three to four mega celebrities that really are perfectly on brand that you would want to partner with, but they're not everything. You still have to have the rest of the pyramid too.
So I think really having a little bit of all of those tiers kind of all works together to build the full pyramid.
Janna: Yes, it's quite so. We see a lot of a crossover there when you've got people who are just an on brand, a good creator who's on brand and they are a good creator. You look at their history of good content. Generally, they always create good content.
That's kind of who they are. They got to be there because they were good at doing content. And if they fit your brand aesthetic and your values, then actually nine out of 10 pieces of content that they create is usable. And so they're a content engine, but most people don't fall into that, which means that they, but as long as they're, you know, they're not on brand in that sense, but they are brand safe, they sort of fit in and more of a revenue driving customer acquisition bucket. So when you're looking at the affiliate channels and LTK and things like that, that becomes much more interesting from that perspective.
Paul: And like, talking of that on-brand and changing brand aesthetics; so obviously we talked about Abercrombie changing a lot recently. VS is another one of those, right? And actually, funny enough, these guys are like best buds. Are you going to go into school together?
Taylor: College besties. We live like, five minutes from each other.
Paul: But you've done a huge transitional shift from that classic ‘Angels’ perception that people had to something which is much more inclusive now. How has this shift influenced your approach to selecting and collaborating with tastemakers, the creators, the influencers, and what have been the results from that?
Taylor: Yeah, I think it's opened up the door for us, right? I think it's allowed us the ability to work and showcase amazing creators because by expanding our sizes, offering, we have a maternity line now, so offering new product categories too, it's opened the doors for us. And I think, it's been a huge part of our strategy is leveraging influencers as part of that change because it shows the relatability, right? It shows we are a changed brand.
And so I think while we still are, you know, leveraging micro influencers, we still see that like we need that macro creator. You wouldn't think a brand like VS needs the awareness, but like we do, we need people to know that we've changed. We have a new projection, we have new sizes, we have new product offerings. So yeah, I think it's been really fun to see.
You know, I think we actually had a lot of hard conversations. Like we called creators that were vocal and didn't like us and just asked for the feedback and they gave it to us, and we used it to kind of ground a lot of the strategies of like the why behind why we should be doing things. And so it's been really fun. We have creators now that are on contracts with us who before didn't want to work with us. And so, yeah, it's been a really fun journey for us. I think there's still a lot to do and a lot to learn. Yeah, and a lot of spaces we're still not in yet that we're learning about.
Paul: What are some of the, you don't have to answer, but what are the unusual quirks? Because being in the industry that you're in, I mean, I think I looked at about 65 million followers on Instagram. How many of those are potential customers and how many of them are just dudes? What are some of the quirks about selling underwear in the world that we wouldn't really know? Some of the funny elements of it.
Taylor: We always joke that it's funny at the office. Guys and girls are always just talking about bras and panties at the office. You're never really talking about that with your guy friends and stuff. But yeah, I think… Just the nature of our product category is hard with creators, right? Not everyone's comfortable posting in that category online. Or if they are, they're showing us how they can style it into their everyday.
Sometimes we see the balance of people just modeling the lingerie, where we want to sell the benefits of it, talk about why you should buy the bra versus just like, of course it makes you look great. So finding that balance too.
But I think the one thing too, when you mentioned our 65 million followers, when we partner with creators, we obviously like re-gram them and it opens up, like; they're putting themselves on this massive platform. And so that's what we're always really excited about is we do have such a huge platform. It's global. We're one of the largest fashion brands on Instagram. So when you think about, like, who you partner with, it's wanting to partner with creators that are having like-minded values that are using their platforms for positive change to then help tell our story.
So one of the creators like Raeann that we work with really closely, she's a huge Advocate for beauty at every size and she does a ton of great work for us. And so, she does it in a fun way though too. So when you said quirk, like she talks about a really emotional message, but like adds a little bit of fun to it too.
Paul: How about Janna, you like beds, like sleeping, like, yeah, how do you sort of balance that? That's like, it's not the classic fashion ‘this is my outfit of the day’, or ‘this is how I do this look’. What have been the different tricks you've got around that?
Janna: Yeah, I think it is really challenging. And the longer you work with someone, the more challenging it gets. Because how often do they want to really talk about getting new sheets or different color ways? We did expand. We have bath. We had loungewear for a little while, which we were able to jazz up the content.
But really, you just have to let the creators really talk about how they authentically can fit it into their life. For example, they just had a baby and sleep is so important, so being able to actually get good quality sleep is great. Or they're a super hot sleeper and this is the first time they're able to comfortably sleep, really making it, kind of throwing it back in their ballpark to say, how can you make this actually a value add to your audience, versus just showing your home?
Verity: Have you got any examples of, obviously if you are at your career, you've been at the forefront of these creator partnerships. Have you got any examples of like, working with a creator in a really unconventional way that's still really driven that awareness and engagement?
Janna: I mean, I think someone not having a bed promoting things is probably the most unconventional way we've worked with someone. Otherwise, I mean, to date, it was pretty standard. You know, it really was just showcasing like this luxury, livable lifestyle.
Taylor: It's funny you say that because we were talking about it the other day. You know, we did a swim campaign and someone put the swim on backwards and we were like, my God, she put the swim on backwards, we need to reshoot it. This is like, and it just shows like how they're actually using it and it actually made sense.
Paul: You would have seen a million people start wearing their swim backwards.
Taylor: Yeah, it's not just us, it was backwards or upside down, she did the tie in the front, but for them it's like a cool new trend or that's what made sense to them. So, It's kind of fun when you see those things happen though, because you're like, I never would have thought about that, but it's different and that's what makes sense in their life.
Stacie: Yeah. And we've actually seen a lot of that with a lot of our female creators wearing men's product too, and styling it in like such a cool, unique way to the point now where like that has become the norm. Well, maybe like half of the selects that we get for some of our creators of their outfits are from the men's side of the business. So it's, I would say very unconventional, but when you see it come to life, it's like, my God, that's so cool. That's styled in such a unique way and it sells.
Verity: So. I suppose on that, Stacie, at Abercrombie, you often target specific lifestyles, sort of like segments in marketing – jean lovers, you've got your brides, your fitness enthusiasts. So how do you tailor your creator activities to appeal to these niche markets all at once?
Stacie: So it's funny you say niche because I think those categories, are actually, like we don't consider them very niche. They're actually – they're things that we know our customers are doing on their long weekends. So I think it's really about finding the right creators to kind of tap into each of those specific niches.
You know, if we are supporting denim for a certain time period, finding the influencers that showcase denim the best, or, you know, with our wedding collection, finding the influencers that sell the most dresses. So kind of just tapping into those specific creators, but really the total product categories are not niche. They're actually what kind of all builds our brand purpose of living your best long weekend.
Paul: Any questions? We do. We've got a few. So Janna, for such a long lasting product, how are you able to drive customers to continue purchasing?
Janna: Newness was like the buzzword at our company the past year. Just making sure that we're launching a bunch of different color ways that excited our customers. Like we were known for a very neutral white, this like beautiful airy look and bringing in a lot of color, vibrancy, like trying to stay on top of a spring refresh, a fall refresh. Like do you need to go from linen to cashmere? Like just making sure that we really do let everyone know we have more than what you might see.
And then also again, upselling with bath products is something else like robes. Like there are other linens you can bring into your home.
Paul|: Nice. And looking for big, big key question. What is the VS Pop Culture Task Force and what does it consist of?
Taylor: There's a, there's a really cool group. Did you guys ask this question? I think that's the thing that's cool about like, you know, big brands is there's a ton – it's like there's a focus group internally that you can use. And so there's a ton of really amazing people that work for the brand that just consume culture all the time.
So there's a ton of millennials, Gen Z, yeah, they meet so often. They're sending out a weekly Monday morning newsletter of what's happened in culture over the weekend. And it's even silly things of what's trending on TikTok, what happened at the Met Gala. So it's just they're always keeping the rest of us up.
And then, they actually use it to help advise what we're doing for the week. So it's like, we've jumped on this trend. We should contract an influencer for this. Yeah, it's a fun group. And I think it's something that we were doing informally always on the PR team. And so it was fun when our marketing team actually established it. Yeah. And they just kind of keep everyone up to date on the trends.
Paul: Amazing. So how do you utilize creators for older generations?
Janna: This is so hard. I think it's also really challenging because oftentimes when you're directed to work with someone older, what does that mean? Because you have no idea how old anyone is on any platform these days. Like a 13-year-old looks 20 and a 70-year-old looks 50. There's just no way of knowing. So I think you have to just remind people that you're going after their audience, like you're not going after the actual creator. So informing yourself of who they're talking to, so asking them the question of like, what's your audience demographic? OK, leadership or whoever is asking. We are actually going after this audience, even though it might not appear that we are. We're hitting them through these people, through these tactics. I don't know if you guys have found a better way of that.
Taylor: No, it's true. I even think like at VS, we obviously have Lingerie, Beauty, Sleep, Swim, Sport. We have a PINK collegiate brand too. So we're across everything. And I think we always think about like, I think the average mom in the US is 27, right? But then you think that there are 27 year olds in New York who are still going out. And then there's 27 year old moms maybe in middle America. So like how do you market to them is very different too. And so I think it's creating a mix of creators or running different campaigns that are specific.
Maybe you're running a Mother's Day campaign or you're translating your product for like whatever they need. Maybe it's like you want a sports bra because you're really into fitness or you might just, you're a mom who like wears it and you're running a bunch of errands. So it's also like translating your product to maybe whatever the audiences that you're trying to reach.
Paul: How's that working for you guys? Cause you've got the Creator Suite, right? So you'll, you'll spread all over middle America, right? The way down to it. Like, so how are you getting that kind of hyper localized experience?
Stacie: Yeah, I think with us, we have of course, like the target demo, but no one is off limits, so to speak. We have some of our most, I would say, successful influencers are actually much older than what our target demo is. And I think it's just important to, like we've kind of mentioned before, have different goals for different streams of the content that you're looking for. Maybe some of those older influencers, they are great at converting. However, we still need to have content with the influencers that are in our target demographic. So I think it's just making sure to have a full pie and cut it in different slices and not just go all in one bucket.
Paul: Can you share a bit on how your teams are structured? What works well with your setup and what do you wish you had but you don't?
Stacie: Good question. I think I'll go first. When I first started the affiliate marketing and affiliate creator program was on a separate team. And when we were able to merge PR influencers and affiliates, that really changed things because we call them affiliate influencers. At the same time, they're still influencers.
So just really making sure that we are able to have strategies that meet both of the; meet all the different needs for PR, for influencers and for affiliates. Having that all under one umbrella, I think proved to be very successful. We still work in very close partnership with so many of our cross-functional partners, but really we kind of say like anything under the human's umbrella is under one team.
Taylor: That makes sense. I feel similar. I think we split our time. I support VIP relations and influencer relations. It's all people of influence and I think as commerce, and Social Commerce is growing. We just love more people to focus on that. I think we have a really great, small but mighty team that focuses on VIP and influencers as a whole. But as you scale, you know, more people dedicated to that because it just, you need quantity of people and you need more heads to be able to do that.
Janna: Yeah. So at Brooklinen, we sat under growth. My team was broken out by channel. So we had someone who focused on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube. It worked really well for what it needed at the time. Community was handled by customer experience, which I find also worked really well because a lot of the questions we were being asked in the community were very product-specific questions that were nuanced and you needed someone with customer experience to really answer a lot of that.
This new role, I've been there a week, so I don't know what I'm going to do. And it's five people. It's a brand new company. So I'm trying to think now that I'm starting over, like how I will structure it. But I do find that the channel focus really worked and it made people experts in their field.
Verity: I love that. I think that's quite refreshing actually these days to have those people specializing on each of those platforms. No one on Pinterest though. Told you.
Taylor: We see quite a lot with the, I think similar to what you guys do in Abercrombie, that human banner of just liking mapping out where the brand's network is, where are the different sub-communities, and actually using the community within your network of people as something which will divide up your teams as well to be quite an interesting approach to that. So yeah, okay, well, this is where our customers are, but actually how many of them are loyalists, how many of them are based around here, how many of them are creators, how many of them are makeup artists, hairdressers, and then kind of building out from that perspective.
We'll see, as we've always said, it is evolving and we're learning as this goes forward because it's all new. Never a dull day. Never a dull day.
Paul: Well, that's been fantastic. So, so, Janna, Taylor and Stacie, thank you so much. That was brilliant.
Verity: Thank you.
Paul: Thank you.
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