Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:00:00]:
What's been bred out of the nano and micro group, especially from an affiliate perspective, I think has been really powerful in creating brands solely off of TikTok or really being able to crowdsource almost the evolution of a brand's business. And I kind of love that.
Paul Archer
[00:00:29]:
Have you ever wondered why some brands grow exponentially, building legions of passionate fans that live and die by their logos and some, well, don't? I do, all the time. And that's probably because I'm a massive brand nerd. But I believe there's a secret sauce at the core of every remarkable brand. A formula that sparks the growth of passionate communities, of superfans, building a business and a reputation that will last for years to come.
In this podcast, we tap into the greatest marketing minds in the world as they share the exact tactics and strategies used to build the world's greatest brands. Dropping actionable insights every brand builder can apply.
My name is Paul Archer and I'm a specialist in Brand Advocacy and word-of-mouth. Having consulted for hundreds of brands on a topic co hosting with me is the wonderful Verity Hurd, expert on the bleeding edge of social media.
It's time to learn and build Brand Advocacy.
Verity Hurd
[00:01:25]:
Welcome to Building Brand Advocacy. Today's episode I am joined by the super talented Stefani O'Sullivan. And Stefani is currently Head of Growth and Marketing at Staud. Previously Savage X Fenty and Chanel. Stefani has over a decade in the luxury and fashion retail space. She's a mentor, advisor, and a board member in the fashion and eCommerce space as well. So welcome, Stefani.
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:01:49]:
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Verity Hurd
[00:01:53]:
I mean, obviously I've just given you a bit of an intro there, but do you want to just kind of intro yourself a little bit? Give us a little bit of an insight into one, how you got into marketing and also how you've got to where you are today.
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:02:05]:
Yeah, I, you know what, always wanted to work in fashion. I was 15, on a farm in New Hampshire and I had those Vogue magazine cutouts and I was ready to move to New York and so I did. When I went to New York for college, I stayed there for 13 years. I had an incredible career in the luxury fashion industry there. And then I moved out to LA for the role with Savage x Fenty that you mentioned. I was their Vice President of Growth Marketing and I had an incredible opportunity to build for the first time their growth organization there, which was an amazing experience with like a skyrocketing, incredible brand. And I, I left there after I felt like I really had done my job that I needed to do and what I moved to LA for. And I've been with Staud for the last year and a half.
I also consult. So I help businesses build their resourcing their organization, refine their marketing strategies, build out their growth division. And that's been really fun, too. Kind of sharing that knowledge across the board has been really fulfilling.
Verity Hurd
[00:03:14]:
Amazing, really inspiring. I mean, I think a lot of, a lot of journeys start with Vogue in the fashion space. I mean, I've still got, and I don't know what to do with them. I've still behind me in this cupboard hundreds of Vogue magazines that from like, the nineties and, yeah, I just, I don't know what to do with them. I just don't want to give them up. But it's kind of like, sort of, it's the start of your journey, right? You start with Vogue.
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:03:41]:
It is. I actually am sitting here, and the first year that I started at Chanel, I was gifted a hardcover Vogue in a hardcover Vogue box from 2013, and it's here on my table. So I love that.
Verity Hurd
[00:03:54]:
I love that. I've actually got a picture of the very cover from the year I was born as well, the month and year I was born.
So I wanted to start with a conversation that we touched on sort of like a few months ago now, Stefani, when we first sort of started speaking, and it's the concept of is what's old new again? And sort of, I suppose old news is that we've kind of witnessed this era of where there's been a huge rise in the cost of customer acquisition and brands have been really reliant on discounting and leaning really heavily on paid media for growth.
And now we're in this era where the brand value really comes from, like those genuine connections and tapping into the emotion side of it and building these communities of super funds.
And I really wanted to kind of get your sort of view on that and, you know, this shift towards the genuine customer connection and community building. And where do you think, sort of like, the growth strategies have adapted to foster these deeper relationships and sort of creating these loyal bases of superfans?
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:05:05]:
I think that there's like a couple of maybe obvious things that I want to mention because I think that they're important. I think they're foundational and kind of the basics. But the one bigger thing that I've noticed is brand stunts. I think brands have really gone hard more recently. And I know we're also going to get into the sort of dichotomies between brand marketing and paid and growth marketing.
And I've noticed over the last, probably year and a half brands just absolutely crushing it with brand stunts, large brand marketing campaigns and physicalizing their brand creations. And I think that that's been really exciting. I feel like that also goes in ebbs and flows a bit.
And so it's been really refreshing creatively to see what a lot of the brands are bringing to the table and how they want to engage with not just their customer, but socially in the media, with content, all those kinds of things.
And then I think basics wise, this sounds obvious, but the market is so saturated. If we just isolate fashion, it's so saturated with so many different kinds of brands and solutions and products. And I think that like knowing what you're selling, why you're selling it, who you're selling it to and what it's used for is because of some of the consulting work that I've been doing, I've seen that a lot of businesses don't have that unlock and it makes it really challenging to make business decisions, how you're going to grow, where you're going to grow, what you want to say. And I think that it has to be the first thing that you do as a business, especially as you're onboarding people into a business.
And then I think also like a very high focus on product development and pricing strategy. There's a lot of garbage product out in the market. I mean, the thing that went live, that went viral on TikTok of I, the website version and then what I got in real life is real and it's real for a reason, because there's this massive disconnect between product that is AI created and then what you get in real life.
And so I think that those things all create trustworthiness and if we're trying to capture someone's attention and fight for their share of wallet, we have to do that. Bye. Giving them an amazing experience across the board.
Verity Hurd
[00:07:38]:
Yeah, I mean, I loved what you saying about the brand stunts and also we're seeing a lot of reactive marketing now as well. So I don't know whether you've seen it, but in the UK you won't have seen it. Definitely not. But Marks & Spencer, they did a campaign this week, right? And then the amount of brands that have kind of like, replicated it and reacted to it and stuff, it's just. Yeah, it's been, been really entertaining and really funny and also lovely, like lovely to see how brands are kind of getting creative with it.
I mean, what are, what are some of your favorite brand stunts that you've seen?
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:08:18]:
There's, like, two that immediately popped into my mind. One is, did you catch the North Face hiker thing a couple months ago?
Verity Hurd
[00:08:29]:
No, I don't think so.
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:08:31]:
Okay. So this hiker, I think, I don't know where she was. She was in the United States somewhere, and she bought this North Face rain jacket. It started pouring wherever she was, and she kind of, like, hunkered down, made a TikTok, and was like, this North Face jacket, it's horrible. I'm soaking wet. I hate it. I'm so unhappy. I'm freezing.
And it went viral on TikTok. North Face saw it, and whether it was coordinated, I have no idea. It could have been a reality stunt. It could have been actual real life. They helicoptered her to where she was hiking. A complete hit.
Verity Hurd
[00:09:07]:
I did see it.
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:09:08]:
Okay.
Verity Hurd
[00:09:09]:
Yeah.
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:09:10]:
And now I'm like, she's a lifelong customer, and she's been making content, and she wasn't an influencer prior to that. She didn't have TikTok followers. And I thought that that was incredible. It reminded me of the Stanley cup, that horrible accident, and the Stanley cup existing through the accident, and then Stanley cup buying this person a new car. I think there's a lot of brands that are doing things like that. I also think the; Ikea is Ikea. Balenciaga.
Verity Hurd
[00:09:37]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:09:38]:
Love that. When Ikea wrapped a towel around themselves on social media, making kind of a Balenciaga campaign, because they just kind of go at each other. I think stuff like that is so, so ingrained in popular culture almost, and it's so eye-catching and people find them funny, but it also creates an incredible amount of brand equity because it's creating recognition and.
Yeah, so those are some I've loved over the last couple of months. I feel like they’ve been good.
Verity Hurd
[00:10:10]:
Yeah, they're great examples. I mean, if I was to say the importance of, like, understanding your customer is. Is more important than any KPI's, would you agree? And what do you think are some of the steps that brands need to take to really fully understand their customers?
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:10:30]:
Yeah, I would agree with that. I think that I would say, firstly, you have to really care and love your customer. It's easier if you are your own customer. When I think about my time at the or savage, maybe less so Chanel, but I'd like to think so. In my mind, I am also the customer. I'm their target market. I love the product, and so it's easy for me to put myself in their shoes and think about how they would want to be spoken to and how I understand what drives my own decision making and try to mirror that. In some ways.
I think having a diverse team – and across the board, not just in marketing – but a diverse team so that you can understand that from different perspectives is critical. I also think that like a lot of times, brands don't, don't regard the end user in everything that they're doing, even daily marketing communication.
Sometimes we get a little lost in the sauce and we'll talk about fall and July and really get everyone's spot and they're thinking about summer and focus on summer. And so I think. I think that understanding context, meeting your customer, your audience, where they're at, are really important things.
And then on the other side of that is like more hard research, customer research, customer surveys, partnering with professional research organizations that can help you run studies or focus groups. I think that's an amazing way to answer maybe hypotheses that you have or gut reactions that you have internally that you want to validate. I love that process and I think it's really fascinating and excites people and also solves a lot of problems that they might think that they have realized but aren't sure if the customer is realizing these or not.
And so I think that that's also a really interesting way to, to understand your customer, where they're at and how they're perceiving your brand as it currently stands.
Verity Hurd
[00:12:39]:
I love that. And I sort of mentioned it before around creating these communities of superfans and Advocates, and obviously they're going to become Advocates the more you get to know them.
Who do you think in terms of brands these days that are really showing up authentically for their Advocates? And how, how are the brands doing it? That are doing it?
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:13:04]:
Well, yeah, I think that I sort of mentioned the weave of culture or popular culture in a little, in one of my answers a little bit ago. I think that the brands that are winning, that also have maybe founders that are really engaged or popular or celebrities themselves, some that come to mind are one's Jacquemus. I love Jacquemus. I love the founder. I think their brand stunts are amazing. I think his content development is incredible. It gives you an amazing insight into his life, into the brand. I love how they portray themselves in the media, and I love how engaged he is on a day to day basis.
There's an obvious one I really love. I think that Kim Kardashian and Emma Grede are brilliant, that everything that they do is really smart. I think that the things that Kim does really well is that, like, problem solution. Every single one of her businesses is really grounded in that problem solution mindset, which is an awesome place to start a business. And then she's also very passionate about the product that she's marketing herself. Yeah, I think that's really powerful.
And then the last one that pops into my mind is Gwyneth Paltrow, her company, Goop. I think that she doesn't take herself seriously. And I think that she has found a way. Her and her team have found a way to really integrate themselves into popular culture. They've done that through product extensions that have gone viral in really silly, cheeky ways. She had that amazing series on Netflix. I think it was called the Goop Lab. Maybe that kind of uncovered a lot of different health and wellness and other topics that I found really fascinating. But they've found ways outside of just, like, traditional marketing, advertising, digital advertising, out of home, things like that, to really make an impact and show who they are authentically.
And I think it really creates a very well rounded. Whatever people feel about it personally, kind of is besides the point, but it's created a really well rounded, thoughtful brand position.
Verity Hurd
[00:15:15]:
Yeah, 100%. And if you were to think about some of the tactics that you've been involved in, when we're talking about really kind of getting to know your customer, showing up for your fans, is there any that sort of, like, really, you know, sort of stand the test of time or any that has really kind of proven, you know, sort of to be the best strategy or the best kind of tactics?
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:15:40]:
I think you have to be okay being wrong. That's not a tactic, but I think that that's important in taking on the endeavor of, like, testing and learning and figuring out exactly what hits. I think that the element of customer research and customer focus groups as a sounding board is really powerful.
I find a lot of times in the businesses I've worked with, we can just get in this really siloed internal mindset. And I've always been the person that's kind of like, are we just talking to ourselves right now? Who are we talking to? Because it sounds like we're just talking to ourselves. And I don't think that anyone outside of these ten people in this room is going to get this or understand why we're communicating in this way, or understand what we're really trying to say. And you need those people and those thinkers to guide content strategy, brand strategy, because otherwise you just get stuck in this sort of internal hole that's kind of hard to dig yourself out of.
There's so many things that I've seen in the market and I'm like, what? What's that? I don't get it.
What am I missing? Did I miss a TikTok? What am I missing?
Sometimes I'm. And sometimes I do, you know, obviously we miss stuff, but sometimes it's like, no, that just didn't hit. It was, it was weird. It didn't make any sense. And that's okay. And you fail. You might waste some money, but. But I think that internally you have to breed a culture of who are we saying this to? Why are we saying it? And are they going to understand it? And if we presented them a version of this today, would they get what we're trying to do?
Verity Hurd
[00:17:25]:
Yeah, I love that. “Did I miss a TikTok?”
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:17:29]:
I just. That's the conversation I have with my fiance every day. I'll come home and I'll tell her something and she's like, did I miss a TikTok? What did I, what, where did you, where did this come from? And I'm like, you definitely missed a TikTok, obviously.
Verity Hurd
[00:17:40]:
I love that. It's definitely going to be part of my language now. And I’m thinking that you kind of, you're in the intersection between paid and brand, aren't you? That's correct. There's a couple of things I want to dig into.
So I actually read a post this morning on LinkedIn, and it was talking about the shift from big advertisers paying less to now the best advertisers are paying less. And obviously, meaning that obviously in the past, advertisers who spent the most got the best rates to today, where it's determined not by how much you spend, but how interesting and valuable your advertising is to the people that you reach.
And kind of just got me thinking around the content behind it and how delivering content that really matters is key to driving, not sort of like the social commerce that converts, but also that community growth as well. And obviously we've started to touch on content and obviously brand stunts reactive marketing and sort of like how brands are getting to know their super fans, to know what – what they want?
But is there any, when we're talking about content, like, what do you think really matters right now?
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:18:50]:
I think that the idea of having these, like, different pillars of content marketing is so important. And I love to challenge my team to have, like, a good, healthy amount of, like, a library of content across the board to be able to tap into from UGC to co created content, something that we create truly with another person, paid content, just organic customer, brand lover content, editorial, ecom, etcetera. I think that the mixture is really important.
I think when I think about social-first content, I'm really focused on, um, co-creation, UGC and that world. Um, I've found the idea of co creation sometimes a little bit challenging because it's not, it doesn't always end up being. It should maybe be a little 60/40, like the brand 40 and the Creator 60, because they're the person that's really, um, driving their own creativity through with our own brand values and brand perspective.
But I think that that kind of content is probably the most powerful because you're leveraging someone else's style aesthetically or creatively, and their position, the way that they speak, the words that they choose to use, their intonation, all those things that make someone a human and themselves. When a brand gets kind of too involved in briefing someone into the ground, it strips a lot of that away and then it feels really inauthentic.
And you can tell immediately when you get an ad or something on any platform, you can tell when they've been given a script versus someone that has been given the creative freedom to do what they do best. And I think that that kind of content is like, I would say, my number one priority.
Verity Hurd
[00:20:59]:
I love that. I mean, a couple of things there. I mean, sort of going back to what you were saying around, it's their voice and how they know their audience the best. Right. And I suppose as well, you're kind of giving them the narrative of your brand, and you're giving them the control to talk about your brand, which is super powerful. And we've talked about that a lot recently on the pod with other guests. And I think that's really key now, to be able to give them that control and how they sort of talk about it.
And then I suppose what I wanted to ask was around how do you choose the creators that you work with? What's that process like?
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:21:38]:
It's different at every brand. I don't know that there's one amazing way, I will say it's always been relatively arduous with that, because it's creative. Right. Everyone is going to have a different reaction and different perspective. Someone that's a Gen Z or Gen Alpha is going to react to a creator very differently than a boomer or even a millennial, because they'll find them authentically different or something like that. And so again, that diverse perspective is really important because I think it can guide the brand in a really nice way.
What I tend to go back to is our brand values and have we defined who our customer is, what she cares about, or what they care about? And problems are that we are trying to solve, and does this influencer, or content creator, or ambassador, or tastemaker, or celebrity, whatever, do they understand that problem? Do they maybe feel the same? And can they intertwine their own story into ours in a really nice way? Whether that's aesthetically storytelling wise in an editorial campaign, in a more UGC type campaign?
So I think that element of care of what the brand is actually trying to do for the people that it's targeting and it was created for, and if you have those similar brand values with your content creator, I think that's where it really sings. How you end up getting to the place of these are the ten people we want to go out with can take a really long time, but using those filters, those brand value filters, whether they're like keywords that you have ideas of people that you want to embody, make it a little bit easier to cut off what doesn't make sense.
Paul Archer
[00:23:42]:
Hey, it's me again. This podcast is sponsored by Duel, which is my company, actually. Duel is the leading Brand Advocacy platform used by the top retail consumer brands, including Unilever, Charlotte Tilbury, Elemis Loop, and about 50 more to manage, measure and scale their advocacy member, affiliate, creator and brand ambassador operations. The platform offers unparalleled scale for complex brands by automating nine out of ten of the standard Advocacy management activities and allowing them to focus on arming their Advocates with the right tools to tell the brand story and drive social commerce, they can grow faster for less.
We only work with 15% or so of the brands we speak to, but we try and add value in many other ways, this podcast being one of them. So if you are a brand that's interested in this, maybe a large consumer retail brand, ideally you're doing $20-$30 million as a minimum, and you're pretty advanced on social and you need to know what the next stage is, then please get in touch. Email me at paul@duel.tech, that is Paul @ D, U, E, L Dot T, E, C, H or Google Duel dot Tech.
Verity Hurd
[00:24:49]:
With the creators you mentioned sort of like influencers. And I suppose there's different levels of creators, isn't there? And influencers. Do you work on the whole scale of like creators from micro nano influencers all the way through to obviously, I mean, obviously you do like the mega influencers. And I suppose where do you find like, what do the nano micro influences kind of do for you for a brand versus like the mega influences? How does that look?
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:25:20]:
Yeah, I've seen the shift and I have experienced it myself with the brands that I work with of going like full force nano, micro, I think that it offers smaller brands and larger brands are doing it also, but specifically like small businesses, I'll say under $10 million in yearly revenue. It offers them an opportunity to find community through these nano and micro-influencers that they really weren't able to do with mega or macro influencers because it was cost prohibitive.
And so I think the element of what's been bred out of the nano and micro group, especially from an affiliate perspective, I think has been really powerful in creating brands solely off of TikTok or really being able to crowdsource almost the evolution of a brand's business. And I kind of love that.
I love mega influencers. I think there's a time and a place for them. I think that it's in high brand impact ways, a show, an event, a pop up, maybe a brand stunt, maybe an editorial campaign. But I think that the day to day foundation is much more impactful when it's human centric.
And I think the nano and micro influencers just inherently feel more human.
Verity Hurd
[00:27:01]:
Yeah, without a doubt. I mean it's, it's what we were saying, isn't it? Before, around the old, the old way is the new way and word-of-mouth marketing and you know, it's never, it's never going to die, is it?
I mean it's what we, it's how we find out about stuff. It's what we trust the most as human beings. And you know, I'm going to trust what, what my best friend says down the pub to, you know, someone I've never sort of met before and you know, you can cut, you just see straight through it now. And obviously all of this has been impacted by our consumer behavior as well.
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:27:36]:
I mean, I sold like ten water filter, like shower water filters yesterday just because I posted a picture of myself on my own personal, private Instagram and was like, if you have hair PSA, you need a water filter. Especially in LA. It's amazing. And I got so many DM's of what water filter to buy and you know, I have 300 followers, but they're my closest friends, it's my community, it's the people that I engage with all the time. And I find that, I love that, I love that aspect of the nano and micro community.
I'm not a nano or micro influencer, but I'm using it as an example of just how impactful your best friend's recommendation can be. And it's so much more highly convertible than a mega influencer pushing one of the maybe 15 products that they've signed on with that month?
Verity Hurd
[00:28:33]:
Or are you considering like for example, like Instagram saying that, you know, they're really focusing on shares being a real impact on the algorithm because, you know, a lot of, and it's related to how they change and the updates and the features that they do on the platform as well because a lot of this stuff is happening in DM's.
Like, I think about the way I interact on social now, and you know, yesterday I probably sent about four links from TikTok to my family group chat from TikTok directly to WhatsApp, or I'll share something in my DM's as well. And obviously it's so powerful now, but how are you responding to the sort of like the dark social and the private sharing?
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:29:17]:
I saw Meta released also like some video content the other day on this part of me is like, was it strategic or are you just adopting meme culture of people being like, I talked to my best friend on text and on DM and here and here and here and here because that's how people communicate with each other because we have access in so many different areas. And you're going from WhatsApp to Instagram to TikTok to your text to your email, so on. And so I think it makes sense that Instagram is prioritizing what people are doing behind the scenes and then using that as an indicator of valuable content.
I don't know how I feel about it as a brand leader. I don't. Unless it's a business, Instagram chat or DM or something like that. I don't find myself necessarily sending an incredible amount of fashion or news or brand content all the time, unless it's to my friend that I'm like, oh, these, you need these new balances. This is very you.
I'm usually sending a funny dog or, you know, some other random video that I found on my doom schooling. And so, you know, I don't know, we'll see how it plays out, I guess. But I don't. I'm assuming, you know, just because I am in my own world, that other people probably are doing the same. Like they're sending funny memes and things like that. They're not necessarily sending an abundance of brand content from brand Instagrams unless they're recommending it to someone to buy.
So I don't know, it's probably going to be more beneficial for the creator and content creator market than it will be for brands themselves. But I could be wrong.
Verity Hurd
[00:31:09]:
No, I think it's a really great point and yeah, yeah, everything I shared yesterday was funny. Memes.
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:31:15]:
Yeah, it was a dog, it was a cat, like swiping something off of it. Yeah, it just.
Verity Hurd
[00:31:21]:
We've got the football, like the Euros happening here, so it was a. A lot of like. I mean, I'm not a massive football fan, but yeah, it was like funny football stuff that I sent to my family. But, yeah, you're right. But yeah, definitely interesting to see how it plays out. But yeah, definitely want to watch the sort of the dark social side of things and stuff that you can't track.
I mean, you're never going to be able to track it anyway, are you? So, okay, going back to sort of paid and brand, there's a couple of things I wanted to ask, first of all, and again, it's a conversation that we've sort of started to have quite regularly with brands and it's the future of these two departments, I suppose, and just wanted to get your opinion on, are they two separate departments still?
Should they remain differentiated or do you think they should now be operating together for maximum impact?
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:32:12]:
Yeah. I've always been very much of the mindset that brand and growth should be under one umbrella. It's what that means to businesses can differ, I think. I've been in businesses where there's been like, you know, a VP plus brand leader and a VP plus growth leader. And it sits under marketing technically, but you're led by two very senior people that might have different goals or agendas or ways of working, whatever. I've also led teams where it's under genuinely one person with director level kind of verticals from there. I really love that approach. I think it's a so important to have vertical experts, an expert in your brand strategy, in press, in influencer marketing, in paid media and growth, whether that's tactically like hands on keyboard or through managing an agency, CRM and retention.
I think that those experts are very important. I'm not looking for like a bunch of generalists necessarily, but I think that the oversight of that team, the best work that I've seen done comes from the collaboration across the board and not siloed teams operating independently and then, like checking in with each other.
I think I started in growth really, really I would say early on, just as it was starting to be kind of a sexy thing and before it was even called growth, I think it was. Still, I come from the brand side of marketing traditionally, and I come from retail marketing. That was where I spent the first chunk of my career before I moved into digital, ecom and paid media. And so I think that because of that, I've always had the mindset of bridging the two. And even when I wasn't overseeing a team or had that direct responsibility, I was always the person reaching over. Partly because I love exercising the creative part of my brain.
And if I'm just stuck in an analytics hole on the paid media side, I get really sad and depressed and I need some creative brand energy or product energy to really excite me and vice versa. And sometimes I'm like, okay, enough of this. I need data. I need to understand what's going on. And that's the kind of conversation I need to have.
And I love marketers that think like that because I think it breeds a culture of curiosity and collaboration, and then it prompts people to want to understand different roles in a deeper way, which is just going to give you the best strategy that you could possibly ask for from people.
Verity Hurd
[00:35:09]:
Yeah. And it's interesting what you were saying around the two kind of different mindsets around it. And I think that's the tricky part though, isn't it? Because I suppose, like with brand, it's always, it's like the longer term strategy, right? And it's what are we measuring, how do we measure it?
And then obviously from the growth side, it's very clear in terms of all of that stuff. And I suppose, yeah, you mentioned in a LinkedIn post around the two kind of seesaw between importance and I suppose how do you tactically kind of balance the sprint with the marathon between the two?
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:35:51]:
I think unfortunately brand teams, because of what you said, they're kind of looked at as a cost center versus really important strategic component that like keeps the brand moving forward. They're looked at as a cost center. They get hit, I would say, like almost first in any kind of economic downturn or like workforce reduction, anything like that. Every business I've been in, they've been hit first. I personally feel like that's a closed minded, like, financial only perspective of a team that maybe isn't tactically responsible for driving direct revenue. Like they're not an actual sales team or something like that.
And because their KPI's are longer term and a little bit more amorphous with that said, I think that if a brand has a longer term vision of, like, what's going to happen six months to a year down the line, all of them have ended up rehiring those roles and they've all had to play catch up. All of them have ended up rehiring those roles and they've all had to play catch up.
There were brands that got rid of CMOs who a year later were like, we need to see, okay, we need a CMO. We made a mistake. We wiped out our brand team. We realized we can't outsource this to three different agencies. We're in housing our brand team again, and it costs you money and time and a lot of things that aren't financially in a business's favor. I also think that traditional growth marketers, like true hands on, keyboard paid media experts, typically aren't also brand strategists. There's not. They could be, but they're traditionally not.
And so you need those people, the marketers, the storytellers, the editors, the writers, the creative thinkers, to fill in the, if we really believe in creative as king, where's the creative coming from then it's coming from the brand. Creative strategists and your art directors and your art team. And getting rid of those teams, then it can, in cost savings, I think it ends up costing you more money than it saves you. And I think a lot of businesses don't think that way.
Verity Hurd
[00:38:23]:
No, 100%. But I also think the brand side is really kind of having this resurgence. Is that the right word? Resurgence?
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:38:31]:
Resurgence? Absolutely.
Verity Hurd
[00:38:32]:
Yeah. And obviously because we're in this era now, but they're very completely different skill sets and the way the two kind of teams think and operate and previous to where I am now, I had my own social media agency. And you could really tell that, like, when I was on strategy calls with like, sort of like the growth side of things and how they analyze things and, you know, how they were kind of connecting the dots. Like, it is so different. And you definitely need the two, and I think it will be really powerful.
The more and more brands kind of do bring the two teams together to see kind of like where that goes in, in the world of marketing. Be really interesting. I wanted to talk about, you've obviously got a lot of experience and I, a lot of knowledge around influencer and tastemaker brands.
And we've sort of like, mentioned a few already. But in terms of influencer-founded brands, like who's, you've mentioned Kim Kardashian, but who else is getting it right right now and why?
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:39:36]:
It's, like, sometimes hard for me to answer. But the few that I have, the Jacquemus, I think, is a really great one. I think Fenty and Savage are doing a really awesome job, mainly because of, like, I think Rihanna's brand value around her ideas, around inclusivity and diversity and democratizing. I'll stick with the lingerie, but she did it also in beauty. She has this very, very specific brand value. And then that comes up in her beauty business, of the amount of shades that she offers in her makeup range. And it comes up in Savage, in the people that she has in her campaigns, the types of products she's creating, her shows on Amazon, so on and so forth. And I think that that's really powerful.
I think that when a founder or an influencer has a real, like, value that they're passionate about and there's a gap, I think that that's the best way to do it. I've been, like, approached before and asked to advise on, like, a new influencer vc background, and I'm in my head, my gut reaction is like, please don't. There's so many. It's so saturated. So unless what you're doing is really personal and really differentiated and there's nothing else out there like it or like the position or like the product, find something else.
And that's maybe a little bit pessimistic, but it's also, as a customer myself, I'm sometimes overwhelmed by choosing, and I can imagine that customers that don't work in the industry and know it as well as I do probably feel that. And so, I don't know. Sometimes I'm a little wishy-washy on the influencer-led brands.
What do you think?
Verity Hurd
[00:41:36]:
Yeah, I mean, I was just thinking that just, I just had a vision of, like, walking into, let's say, a department store in the beauty. The beauty section downstairs, and, like, you know, and then you're right. Seeing all these faces, and it's kind of like, okay, who's doing what.
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:41:53]:
Yeah, I had the same vision of walking into Sephora, and I'm like, there's. There's Selena Gomez's brand, Rihanna’s brand, there's Lady Gaga's brand, there's Kim's brand, there's Kylie's brand, there's Pharrell's brand. There's – and those are just the celebrity driven brands. That's not even, like, Dior, La Mer. Goop. Not Goop, whatever. Super Goop.
And so it's incredibly overwhelming and so I think while a couple of them are doing it incredibly from a content perspective and a values perspective, I think that the others often get lost, I think.
Verity Hurd
[00:42:37]:
Yeah, and I think it's how they bring you into the community piece. There's a beauty brand. I don't know whether you've heard of them yet. In the US, REFY and their an influencer-founded brand. The way they're building their community right now is really kind of incredible. And, you know, sort of how they've done it is just a true example of like, yeah, of how these influencer celebrity brands, if they can bring you in. And again, aligning what you were saying too, around Rihanna and the value piece there.
I actually was in; went to LA GROW last October and I, there was somewhat, there was Scott, Head of Growth, I think, from Savage and he was on stage and he was talking about it and talking about Rihanna and it was really inspiring. And like, even the way he was talking about her and the way she lets work and, you know, the way when she comes into the office, you could tell there was just something a little bit different there.
So, yeah, I think, you know, it is a saturated market, but you're right, I think the ones that stand out are the ones that are bringing you in and you kind of feel that connection in some way. And brand trips and sort of like those traditional influencer trips were sort of like once the cornerstone of like fashion brands social strategies, I suppose.
Where do you think is the next frontier when it comes to the creator marketing?
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:44:09]:
Yeah, I think that the brands that have done the trips and perfected the trips like the revolve net a porte those brands, those are the ones that at least come top of mind. J. Crew, they've perfected it and it's beautiful and they have it on lock. I'll put actually J. Crew in a different bucket because I do want to maybe reference them in terms of brand trips.
I don't necessarily think that brand trips are dead. I think that the way that brands approach them in their own way is what can make it really impactful. J. Crew is an example of that.
They've done beautiful, really, really beautiful influencer trips that really are different from anything else I've ever seen in beauty or fashion. They're very experiential, it's very authentic. It feels like a friend trip. All of the content looks very UGC created, like iPhone created. And it's more about community and doing things together and learning something new about a new place versus you walk into a hotel room and have it filled with product. Like, it's less. Like it seems less commercial in that way.
And I think they've done a really nice job with that. I also think, though, what we were talking about earlier in terms of the brand stunt piece, we could leave aside maybe the reactionary kind because that's not something that you can always plan. But I think creative pop ups, creative partnerships or collaborations with artists or musicians or other brands I think is really interesting.
I think that what's going to become or continuously be more important is the social listening piece. The element of like, true influencer trips maybe is a little dead. I think that the idea of like, co creation, not just in content but also in product is really interesting and something that I've seen a lot of.
A couple of years ago, Glossier had this whole social listening campaign. Customers kept asking for mascara.
They were commenting, tweeting, whatever, and Glossier used all of that, like, screenshots of all of these customers asking for this product as their marketing campaign to launch their mascara. It was very much like a ‘you asked, we answered’. And I really love that. I think that it's really smart. There's inherent demand baked in. You're providing like, a real solution that someone already wants.
And I think that in the gap of like, spending money on glossier moments, there's ways that you can engage the community and find new community through partnerships, new product extensions and human connection.
Verity Hurd
[00:47:23]:
Love that example. And I was just thinking then as well about the content side of it. As a consumer watching the content or consuming the content from say, I know what you're saying around brand trips may not necessarily be dead, but I think it's the way they tell that story.
And I loved what you're saying around making it more UGC because I, if I see influencers, like, they've got like, you know, it's always like the same pack of influencers as well that kind of get invited to these things and, and if it's just, some of it just feels very showy offy, some of it's just like, look where I am.
But yeah, I think you can definitely tell when brands get it right, when it's more of that UGC and you feel like you've kind of been brought into it a little bit as well. And not only are they kind of like learning in that experimental bit, but you're ahead. You are as well, especially around like the products and bringing them into the brand story side of it. So, yeah, love the glossier example.
I'm just going to end on one last question right now. What is fashion's growth and marketing's North star and why?
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:48:32]:
The element of COVID and how much that impacted so many brands and their ability to physicalize and create experiences and connection was for a couple of years, it was really challenging and I'm seeing like so much creativity and interesting activations and pop ups and collaborations, gifting that is really beautiful, very brand centered, really creatively driven and really showcases like the best parts of both people and the brand and their product. And I think that that's going to continue, at least for the next three to five years.
I think that the spectacleness is going to continue to, to build until it feels like so many people have already done this, now it's redundant. And then there'll be a lull and then there'll be a new wave of creativity that comes out and we start to re-experience something new.
But I don't think that we've hit that yet. And I think that a lot of brands are really working to figure out what it means for them to be in AI or what a spectacle, what a brand spectacle looks like for them. And I think that that's amazing work being done.
Verity Hurd
[00:50:08]:
When the next wave hits, we'll jump back on and we can hash that out.
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:50:12]:
I'd love to.
Verity Hurd
[00:50:14]:
Stefani, this has been great. I've absolutely loved chatting to you. Where can our listeners find you?
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:50:21]:
My website, stefaniosullivan.com – hit me up.
Verity Hurd
[00:50:25]:
Thank you so much. It's been great.
Stefani O’Sullivan
[00:50:27]:
Thank you. It's been awesome.
Paul Archer
[00:50:30]:
That was another episode of Building Brand Advocacy, the world's top brand building podcast. To find out more about Building Brand Advocacy and how this podcast is part of a bigger plan for our brand building cookbook. Then make sure to search for Building Brand Advocacy in Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts or anywhere else that podcasts are fine and make sure that you click subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes.
Thanks to Duel for sponsoring. To find out more, go to www. Duel . tech – and on behalf of the team here at Building Brand Advocacy, thanks for listening.
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