Sekai Masunda [00:00:00]:
I think the problem with sometimes when people are trying to create brand love is that they're getting too rigid. Like we have this outdated concept of target Personas where like it's really kind of being too rigid and looking at the individual, but where you need to look at the community, the shared values that people. Have.
Paul Archer [00:00:25]:
Have you ever wondered why some brands grow exponentially, building legions of passionate fans that live and die by their logos and some, well, don't? I do, all the time. And that's probably because I'm a massive brand nerd. But I believe there's a secret sauce at the core of every remarkable brand. A formula that sparks the growth of passionate communities, of superfans, building a business and a reputation that will last for years to come.
In this podcast, we tap into the greatest marketing minds in the world as they share the exact tactics and strategies used to build the world's greatest brands. Dropping actionable insights every brand builder can apply.
My name is Paul Archer and I'm a specialist in Brand Advocacy and word-of-mouth. Having consulted for hundreds of brands on a topic co hosting with me is the wonderful Verity Hurd, expert on the bleeding edge of social media.
It's time to learn and build Brand Advocacy.
Verity Hurd [00:01:21]:
Welcome to Building Brand Advocacy. I am incredibly excited to welcome Sekai Masunda onto the podcast today. Today you are a very talented brand and content consultant. Previously Jigsaw, Lululemon and PANGAIA. Yes. Amazing. Thank you for joining us today. Would you just want to give our audience a bit of an intro, let them know how you got to where you are today.
Sekai Masunda [00:01:48]:
Yeah, so you said, I specialize in brand and content marketing and that kind of, I work across like brand strategy, campaign planning and strategy, also content marketing and then also social and influencer. So I think when you think of brand, I feel like that really encompasses kind of the whole thing. And also been dabbling in a little bit of press as well too. I always say that I never intended to start into brand or marketing. I wasn't like, okay, I went to school and I wanted to become a marketer. At the time, going into university, we didn't even know that marketing was a thing or you could do it. And then I originally went to school to do law and was doing criminology and I went to the university in Canada. And then we have this thing called breadth courses where you have to take certain courses that are outside of your major.
And then I stumbled upon these marketing communication courses and then I kind of fell in love. And I've always had, I loved music marketing. And then I've always been intrigued about like, how artists are marketed, how music is marketed, and kind of, it kind of came full circle. That was very niche. And then I kind of went into content marketing at first and then became specialized in that and then did influencer when influencer marketing kind of was like just starting out and then moved back into content and then now like kind of more so kind of generalizing and doing more brand.
Verity Hurd [00:03:05]:
Incredible. How did you sort of like land with Jigsaw and Lululemon? I mean, they're big, they're big names.
Sekai Masunda [00:03:12]:
Prior to Lululemon, I started a company called Build Direct and I loved it. I was working with like some good people, my friends, and I had no intention to really leave. And then like a headhunter, a recruiter from Lululemon slid into my DM's and was like, hey, we have this role. I was like, oh, like, I know Lulu because Lulu, most people don't know that Lulu is like born and bred in Vancouver, the head office is in Vancouver and has a kind of start off with that like west, very west coast feel. And their whole motto is all about like kind of like the sweat life and like, whatever you do, just like find ways to just get out and sweat.
And I was like, you know what, I've been working kind of at startups and medium sized companies. This kind of be my opportunity to kind of have that global brand experience. And I was like, you know what, like, why not like, let me get this experience and see how it goes? And so that was my first time working at these like global teams and then kind of working cross functionally with all our global, different offices, China, UK, EU, and also kind of working with bigger budgets, bigger brand team.
Our brand team, I think was about 200 people, which is like fairly huge. And we also operated almost like a pseudo like mini agency as well too. And like all of our creative was done in house, all of our content was done in house, which is like a really kind of set the scene of like getting the experience and kind of taking that and also like a company that was really well structured, right? And as opposed to startups, you're kind of building that structure. And so that's why I take knowing how their like structure and the kind of ways of working and then I take bits and pieces and then apply it to like, say, for instance, I'm working at a small to medium sized business or startup and I apply that knowledge and take it there.
Verity Hurd [00:04:47]:
Yeah. And that's exactly what they need. Startups are so scrappy.
Sekai Masunda [00:04:50]:
I kind of love it in the sense, because I think like, having the experience working in, like, both of those places, small medium sized startups and global. I think the sweet spot for me is kind of like that medium sized company because then you also don't necessarily have the layers and the red tape. You can kind of move swiftly and if you want action things, say, for instance, from your community want something, you can kind of put that into action quite quickly.
Verity Hurd [00:05:12]:
Nice. I love that. I want to start off with a conversation that probably feels quite big and quite deep, and we started to touch on it just before we obviously went live. But it's around this creating emotional connections.
And I think the brands that are really standing out in today's era, the ones that are managing to do that, but I wanted to kind of touch with you, like how, how do you stand out to build brand love, especially in such a saturated market in 2024?
Sekai Masunda [00:05:42]:
Yeah, I think everybody asks that question and that's the whole goal as us as like brand marketers, to build that brand love. But I think it's like it's creating a structure in your business where obviously all business have shareholders and C suites, and we all want to make money as a business, but also making room for brand because there's certain things where, say, for instance, social, the social media platforms are there to entertain and educate people and have aspirational content as well, too.
You can't shove, that's not the place to shove product down people's throats and have these really big sales messages. Because nowadays your social media platforms are almost an extension of your website, an extension of you. And that's the first place that people are going to kind of see who you are. Like, oh, I heard about this company. Let me look at them off on Instagram. Let me look at them on TikTok.
And within, like the first couple of scrolls, you can really find out who a company is and who a brand is. So I think that's a place where you just have to be like, lean into that, like you said, human to human connection, lean into authenticity. Nowadays, it's not enough just to have a good product. Like people want something to kind of get behind. It's almost like building this brand universe and building these different touch points within your brand universe. I think that also ties into, quote, this quote unquote, idea of community. I think a lot of brands want to build community, but I also think it's almost the other way around where like this idea of taste communities, which was kind of the first time I heard about it was from this, like, really great CMO, Anna Angelica. And she has this amazing substack, and also she does these podcast episodes.
And really, taste communities are, what are the shared values and niches that exist? And then you as a brand will tap into that and add value. Right. So I think building brand love is, like, part of it is adding value to your community, to your consumers, authentically. And, like, sometimes, like, with these taste communities, naturally, a couple of brands that do it well are Netflix, TikTok, in a sense that, like, your feed on Netflix is going to be different from mine. And, like, you already. You're already in tune to these taste communities that you innately tap into. Right? And so for me, my Netflix is probably going to be, like, crime documentaries. I love a good cooking show, like MasterChef interior design.
And then if you look at you, yours will be different.
I think the problem with sometimes when people are trying to create brand love is that they're getting too rigid. Like, we have this, like, I feel this outdated concept of target Personas where, like, it's really, like, kind of being too rigid and looking at the individual, but where you need to look at the community, the shared values that people have.
Another example is, like, say, for instance, I may not be Apple's target audience because I have an Android, but I also have a MacBook. Oh, you know? Exactly. So, like, I think it's like, I can still buy into Apple, but, like, I still value design by. I love the, like, the Android functionality and the usability there, but I love the cleanness. Like, I will never not have a MacBook computer.
Like, for me, that's what I like. And so, like, if you were doing just, like, a target Persona, like, you may miss out on somebody like me who's like, I'm always going to buy a MacBook. And same thing with kind of, like, any type of product, really. And then same thing with, like, a TikTok. TikTok has huge shared communities and taste communities as well too, where, like, I love book talk. I love to read and, like. But also within book talk, that community, there's different sub communities within that. Like, say, for instance, I love fantasy and sci-Fi so for me, that's, like, my taste community.
That's, like, where I'm finding shared value. And then you have people that are making tikToks specifically for those things, and brands can tap into those things and then reach, like, a multitude of people.
Verity Hurd [00:09:21]:
Yeah, there's a couple of things there I want to unpack. So I think the first one was around you said, like, brands are becoming quite rigid and not just sort of like with target Personas, but I also think, like, with the social platforms these days, you know, it's.
Adam Mosseri yesterday came out with, we've changed the word on how we're calling in their views and it's now plays. And there was loads of people, like, questioning it underneath and asking all these questions. And I think brands get really caught up in algorithms and updates and trends. And what I'm seeing is that then is meaning that brands are kind of just following this playbook and they think they should be doing X, Y and Z to get X, Y and Z, but actually they're all kind of blending in and kind of becoming the same.
And I think, yeah, if brands can kind of break out from that and really just own their own identity, and that will be a big part of building brand love because that's how they'll stand out. The second thing I wanted to tap into was around these sub communities.
And I also think something brands don't do enough is look at the goldmine of opportunities they've got with all these sub communities.
We interviewed Fiona, who was at Wild at the time, and she was saying the deodorant brand, and they just found a community of horse riders. Things like that really fascinate me. But brands have to go out there and they have to do the work to find them. So, yeah, I just wanted to touch on those two points because I completely agree.
Sekai Masunda [00:10:50]:
Even I think that the nugget is there kind of stemming off what you said. I think we just need to stop taking ourselves too seriously. Because at the end of the day, marketing is storytelling at its simplest form, whether it's a billboard, out of home ad or Instagram post, is storytelling. And how can you get that universal truth, that nugget of information and then storytelling, like emotional, impactful way.
Like, you see, like, Nike does a really good job of storytelling and they really tap into those different sub communities as well too, and like, taste communities and they do a really good job there. But also, I think another, like, I'm always listening to different podcasts and, like absorbing these different books. But another nugget of information I found that was fascinating, which I found that I was innately doing already at some companies, is that bridging the gap between kind of your, the insights that you get from your C suite and your community. And so sometimes we like to absorb, like, say, everything, your insights from your community in a report and this amazing CMO at ELF, they've been doing such great marketing and such a good job right now. She was saying that she's like, I don't want to get what my community is saying isn't in a report.
She's like, on a daily basis I'm consuming thousands of things online, whether it's been like, comments from our customers, our consumers, talking to their customer service team so she can get in real time and then translate that back to the CEO.
So then she, as a C Suite, or like, also the member of the brand team, they're understanding what their customers are saying in real time and then translating that into action. And so they also needs to be, from insight to action, there needs to be very, very, like a smooth transition. And so if their customers are saying, oh, I want this, then you're translating the action. It has to be also an element of like, being able to take things on really quickly.
And so I think she was mentioning that she was in like a Facebook or Instagram live or something and her CEO was on it. And then they kept, the customers kept on going on about this product that they wanted. He's like, oh, my God, they won't stop talking about this.
And he left in like ten minutes. And he went to his product team and he's like, we need to make this for them. And then their community was like, are you guys in my bedroom? Are you guys in my mind? Because that's how you win. And that's how actually businesses make money and develop brand love, because you're giving people what they actually want and listening to them.
Verity Hurd [00:13:05]:
I suppose, tactically, how do brands, I mean, obviously, you just mentioned that was on a live, which is obviously blowing up right now, the whole live commerce piece. How else can brands, apart from picking up the phone, how else are brands listening to their customers these days? How can they go out and actively get that kind of data and feedback from them?
Sekai Masunda [00:13:25]:
Yeah, I mean, at Jigsaw, we had a lot of VIP events, and that wasn't influencers. It was VIP events for our customers, our repeat customers. And we would get to, we would go there in stores and talk to people, also have these events just for them. You see refi beauty. They're doing things right now where they're like, influencers will always be there. But nowadays, your customers, they're your influencers. They want to have feel like they have a hand in shaping your company, shaping the brand. Also, me and my team would go on store visits.
We'd go from all our different stores around our different estates, and take a day and go store to store because our store in one location will be different from another one than is different from one in Leeds at Jigsaw. And all those customers are different. All those stores are different. And also talking to the store managers hand in hand because they also have really personal relationships with their customers, some of the customers they're chatting to on WhatsApp.
And so they're like a wealth of information where we can get valuable insight from the customers directly and then we can kind of feed that back into our campaigns, our marketing, the product development portion of things, even just like, for me, I was scrolling through our Instagram comments and people kept on saying, we want to see real people. Like, we want to see real bodies.
And then for our denim campaign, that's kind of how I developed it was like kind of taking that negative information, casting a model that was, quote unquote. Plus, I mean, real life wise, not, but like, because they wanted just to see real people and then also getting that product into stores on our managers and having our managers wear their favorite denim so then our customers can see denim on actual real human beings, different ages, different, like people.
Verity Hurd [00:15:05]:
I'm going to come back to that campaign in a bit. I just wanted to sort of check in on, obviously, that's kind of talking into, like, consumer behaviors evolving. Obviously they want more than just products now. Like, how else do you see those habits changing?
Sekai Masunda [00:15:23]:
Yeah, I think also I think Covid changed things massively. If you look at how the data of, like, how many people, obviously people weren't shopping in stores anymore, they're shopping online.
And D2C brands kind of made that a focus of, like, let's like, bolster our online presence. And you see that kind of more recently with Nike and how, like, the result of that. And so I think, like, we went from shopping online because we couldn't shop in stores, but that doesn't mean that customers didn't want to shop in stores. Personally. For me, I'm an online gal. Like, I like to shop in stores.
I almost think of myself as like a hermit because, like, I, I always tell my friends, I never like to leave my house. I like, I shop online, I'll buy things online. I like the thrill of, like, having a package coming to my door. But at the same time, what's actually going to, I do shop in stores, but what's going to get me to go in stores is brand experience. Right?
Some brands are doing it well, like a brand, like Gentle Monster. Like, it came, their, their brand came up from the fact that they saw that, like, the optical industry was kind of boring and, like, it wasn't innovative. And then the founder, Hankook Kim, like, he was like, hey, there's a white space there. And I think they started firstly online and then afterwards he's like, you know what? I think the thing about the optical industry is that you have one big conglomerate that owns all these optical brands, but they're not really offering a really great in person physical store experience for their customers.
And that's also a way that customers, you can win with customers offering this brand experience. Because, gentle monster, all their stores are almost like art installations. And so you go to one, a store in, like, Sydney and then one in New York, and it's drastically different. And they were going, I think they're turning over their stores and, like, every two weeks, which is crazy, but it's like, it makes me want to go in the store because I'm. And makes me want to leave with something.
Like, I'm like, I'm not leaving that store unless I'm leaving with something. And I don't care how much it is because it's almost like going to a gallery where, like, I want to buy, even if it's a tote bag or something. Because you're taking home this, like, experience.
Verity Hurd [00:17:24]:
Yeah, yeah, I totally relate to that. I was, part of my retail career was at House of Fraser, and obviously we know what's happened to them. And I remember I was randomly in learning and development there, not on the shop floor, but it was that conversation that we were trying to have that there was, nothing was happening in store. Like, you were almost kind of like, walking into just this real stale environment.
And then we were competing with the likes of, like, Selfridges, who do offer some kind of experience. Like, it feels buzzing. There's always something going on. So, yeah, I totally relate to that whole in store brand experience and brands not forgetting that.
Sekai Masunda [00:18:06]:
Yeah. So I think that's very much how things have changed. We've went, like, buying online mostly the COVID now things opening up, people kind of having a hybrid of, like, online offline. And then now I think people really want, like, they'll do both, but they really want, like, experiences. And people want to come out to, like, experience the whole brand essence of your brand and that brand universe. Another brand I could go on is, like, Aesop as well, too. Like, all their stores are different from country to country, from city to city. And they also, like, mainly target that I found, like, areas where it has, like, creatives and so.
And also, like they're, they focus on the architecture of their stores as well too. So it's hyper curated. And also they're offering this experience, but also they inject things into their brand like the queer library that they have, they do every year around pride. And so I think it's like you're having this hyper, hyper personalized experience per city, per store. And then also you have another lay of brand experience of having like this cultural moment with their queer library as well too.
Paul Archer [00:19:12]:
Hey, it's me again. This podcast is sponsored by Duel, which is my company, actually. Duel is the leading Brand Advocacy platform used by the top retail consumer brands, including Unilever, Charlotte Tilbury, Elemis Loop, and about 50 more to manage, measure and scale their Advocacy member, affiliate, creator and brand ambassador operations. The platform offers unparalleled scale for complex brands by automating nine out of ten of the standard Advocacy management activities and allowing them to focus on arming their Advocates with the right tools to tell the brand story and drive social commerce, they can grow faster for less.
We only work with 15% or so of the brands we speak to, but we try and add value in many other ways, this podcast being one of them. So if you are a brand that's interested in this, maybe a large consumer retail brand, ideally you're doing $20-$30 million as a minimum, and you're pretty advanced on social and you need to know what the next stage is, then please get in touch. Email me at paul@duel.tech, that is Paul @ D, U, E, L Dot T, E, C, H or Google Duel dot Tech.
Verity Hurd [00:20:17]:
I mean, you've been involved in some pretty brilliant campaigns yourself across the brands. Can you just like describe that process of kind of coming up with like a disruptive 360 campaign?
Sekai Masunda [00:20:29]:
Yeah, I think we all tried to disrupt. I think the way you can become disruptive, like I said, is looking back into those customer insights and then it ends up being easier than what it actually seems because I think it's very hard if you're like, you're getting into a room and brainstorming with your team, like, let's disrupt. Like, what does that mean?
So I think the whole nature of, say, for instance, our denim campaign at Jigsaw, which is one of the top performing campaigns that we had, was that it all started from, first of all going into search and realizing when are people searching for and wanting to buy denim and partnering with our EcoM team. And they told us that actually people are buying it the front half of the year and then also, so like end of January, Feb, and then also in, like, autumn. So, like, September kind of coincides with back to school, back to work.
And so we know, okay, like, we're going to do, like, we don't really want to do it, like, right after, like, Christmas and the holidays. People are tapped out on money as well, too. So, like, let's give some people some breathing room and we do it in February.
And so making sure that things are timely and based off of, like, consumer habits and search habits. And also, like I said, like, really taking that insight and bringing into actions. Right. And so, like, what are some of the things, like, crafting that campaign? Denim is such a personal process. Like, buying jeans. Like, I hate it.
Verity Hurd [00:21:43]:
So many people do.
Sekai Masunda [00:21:45]:
Oh, my God. Going to the store, trying things on, and, like, your, everybody's body's different. Like, you're shorter, you're taller, but if you're maybe your torso is longer, shorter than somebody else, and the legs are taller.
And so I think that it's such an emotional thing, like, when you're buying denim. But, like, what we could give people answer their questions on fit, style. And for us at Jigsaw, it wasn't that we're trying to compete with the Levi's because they have such huge market share. It was more so that, like, hey, we have this category, product category, and we want to do something. And we also want to make sure people know, hey, actually, Jigsaw is a destination where you can actually find denim.
Jigsaw is known for quality product, but so is our denim as well, too. Right? So creating that category awareness is what we try to do. And also creating that emotional connection and then also digging into the insights of, like, people are, like, we want to see real people. We want to see larger models. We want to see also, like, behind, they loved our behind the scenes stuff. Like, consumers love BTS content because you're kind of getting behind the curtain and seeing how things come because you have this idea of, like, a campaign. But what is that to the average consumer, right? How does that come to be? And so being able to give people content based off of that. So for dynamic campaign, obviously, like, it starts off on, like, social was kind of the main part where, like, we partnered with this, like, really great videographer duo that does all that, did all our, like, social content for us.
And we kind of told them what, like, the brief was. And we worked with them quite closely on the brief, so they kind of knew what we wanted. And then we worked with a model from France, and she, it was just really organic. We got her in our studio. And then we kind of talked about, like, how does denim make you feel? And we discussed that. And also we did a lot of, like, different content around fit sizing style as well, too. And then also, like, taking things in store. We did a launch, like, kind of a launch event in our Battersea store.
And then we also did our wonderful, like, copywriter, and our VM team also did a really cool, like, window installation with offcuts for denim. And so thinking about different ways, like, okay, the art piece, the customer piece, the in store piece, the insights, and then also in store, having our staff wearing the denim, the new launches, and also our icon denim. And be like, pick your favorite denim and wear it. And then. Cause that also creates conversation. Like, people can see it on an actual human being of different sizes, different heights, different ethnicities, everything.
Verity Hurd [00:24:11]:
Yeah. And I think as well, I mean, there's such an education piece with denim.
Sekai Masunda [00:24:15]:
Yeah, like, that.
Verity Hurd [00:24:16]:
I think just to the average person that just buys a pair of jeans doesn't understand, like, how much education goes into it. And once you've found your perfect pair of jeans, that's a repeat purpose, repeat purchase for life.
But, yeah, I think the piece around getting the store staff to wear it, I mean, we talk about it quite a lot, and I think, again, it's a piece that some brands just get so wrong. Like, they need to be in your products. Like, your store staff are advocates for your brand.
Sekai Masunda [00:24:41]:
Exactly.
Verity Hurd [00:24:42]:
And like you said, like, they've got their own experiences, they've got their own different shapes and sizes. And it is a conversation start, but they can speak genuinely and authentically about how something fits, how it's making them feel. So that's, yeah, super interesting. What's been your favorite campaign and why that I've done?
Sekai Masunda [00:25:00]:
Yeah, the denim one is up there because I think we worked collaboratively with the whole team. And also, I really love the Roxana campaign. I love doing collaborations because I love that energy marketing and also working with a different brand kind of coming together. And also just from a brand to brand lens, you kind of can piggyback off of their audience and grow your audience organically that way.
But I think it came naturally between our creative director and also Roxanne, the Roxanne brand. It was just a brand that really advocated towards women. We both loved color as well, too. But also, I think telling the story about both brands, in a sense, really helped.
And doing, again, people want to know, like, how did the collaboration come to be? Like, how did the design, what was the design process? And so we did a lot of, like, Q and A and interview sessions between our creative director and Roxanda and also BTS. So they just sat down in our, in our studio and then just chatted about, like, how they got together and how, what was inspiration behind each of those designs.
And then also we did kind of like this to building a campaign. I always do, like, tease, launch sustained content. And so I framed it that way in terms of, like, okay, what do we want? How do we want to tease this concept? How do we want to draw hype? And then press paid a factor. PR played a factor in that as well, too. Partnered with our, like, a really amazing pr agency to kind of, like, they've been doing the work in the background to kind of drive relevancy for Jigsaw. And so building really good relationships with press and then having them also, like, talk about us and the collaboration as well, too, prior to launch, which really drove the buzz and the energy.
And then also we did a partnership with Vogue kind of like a day or two before the launch. And then we had the Vogue team trying on the Roxana collaboration product, talking about it, which also drove buzz as well, too.
So I think the key thing was driving that urgency prior to the launch and then the launch, you kind of have a really big bang. But for me, it came down to why I liked it is just the relationships, right? Like, being able to work with different brands and, like, see how they work and kind of bring two bands together. Also, I think the relevancy portion of collaborations is so key. Coincidentally, like, we didn't even know, but Roxanne actually collaborated with Beyonce and I think, like, did some designs for her for her Renaissance tour. And so right before we were about to drop the campaign, we saw that. So that actually helped kind of inadvertently drive momentum and conversation as well, too.
Verity Hurd [00:27:26]:
It was a great campaign. I was obsessed with it.
Sekai Masunda [00:27:28]:
Oh, thanks. I mean, the team worked so hard on it.
Verity Hurd [00:27:30]:
Yeah. Beautiful pieces as well. Let's go into content. And I think what our listeners would really want to know right now is what does good content marketing look like today?
Sekai Masunda [00:27:41]:
I think with content, like I said, like, if we're looking at content specifically on social, as I mentioned, like, customers don't, like, they don't really care about the product. I mean, they do care about the product. But, like, social is not a place for you to be, like, specifically talking about product. I think within your content strategy, like, maybe that's like, 10/20 percent.
But then also, like, good content is, like, you have what I like to think about, you have some kind of like founding story or some story about, like, your brand also like sometimes tying your founder, the people within your company. So like, we were like talking about like, who's behind the scenes and like getting them to talk about like, the journey of the brand where they are now. And like, you can, you can keep on telling those stories for however long period of time. It doesn't have to be about like, when your brand has just started, right.
And then you have to have, I think, right now some sort of like episodic tv show content. And it doesn't need to be like this, like actual tv series, but like, within the social realm of things, like maybe like bite sized content. And two brands that do it really well is on running, I think I love their branding, what they've been doing lately. And they did this wonderful content series, I believe, where like, they just got like a girl on their team and then she'd go from city to city, country to country, and do interviews with people while doing going on a run, you know, like, so it's like rooted to their ethos of running.
And then also you have this, like episodic, repeatable and scalable content that the customers are now building up habit, you're building up habits with customers and they're becoming to expect it. Right.
Another great brand that does amazing content is Alexis Batar fashion jewelry brand. And they've done this like telenovela documentary style content that's, that's literally the most amazing, innovative thing ever.
And kind of the brainchild of their creative director and just follows this like, it kind of pokes fun of like this. I don't know if it's like the social life or like the, the ladies in like New York where and they have like their assistants and they're like dragging their assistants around everywhere to kind of their beckon call, but it kind of is, I think he was saying it's like a love story to New York as well too, like getting people to know how New York is, but also kind of not taking your brand too seriously and having fun with your content.
I think that's like where people are winning, having fun. And also, I said creating some scalable and repeatable type of content and also doing a soft sell of your product. So every series they have this, like the lady and everybody in the content is wearing this, their fabulous jewelry, just like high fashion kind of luxury fashion showpieces. But like, that's not the main focal point. It's like they happen to be wearing your product but the main thing is this amazing piece of content that they have put together. And then I think next is, like, having, like, a product showcase, a brand that does it really well as all things butter.
And so, like, having, like I said, like, you're just using butter to create dishes, food dishes, in different ways, which is inadvertently kind of selling your product kind of for you.
Verity Hurd [00:30:45]:
I mean, there's some great examples in there and I love some of those ideas, especially around, like, the episodes. Yeah, I mean, how do brands ensure that they create content that drives that engagement, but also kind of, like, it taps into the community and the culture effectively?
Sekai Masunda [00:31:04]:
A lot of it is testing and learning, I think. I don't think any of those brands, like, they probably did, like, came up with that content through testing and learning, just trying things out and also kind of getting this, like, insight from their brands itself and figuring out, like, simple ways to just create meaningful content that, like, touches, like you said, on that culture portion of things.
I think with, like, Alexis Vitara, it's interesting because, like, we all love, like, it's like, the humor portion of things that innately human beings, we love, we love to laugh, we love humorous.
But then also there's that universal truth component of things that tie into the locally New York and that people can kind of resonate with the locals of New York and in turn, everybody else that's maybe not from New York. So I think that stems from it. But I think tapping into the culture is kind of challenging because, again, you have to then tap into those taste communities and figuring out what communities does your customers tap into or already involved in, and then building out things and content from there.
Verity Hurd [00:32:06]:
How do they do that?
Sekai Masunda [00:32:08]:
The taste community? Yeah, I mean, I think there's also different tools where you can look at the demographics of other brands that your customers and consumers follow. And from there you can see, okay, this person likes this and also likes that. And then you can find the different niches and then tap into that that way.
Verity Hurd [00:32:27]:
And also, going back to your first point around testing and learning, I 100% believe that. I really like the sort of ethos around the diary of a CEO in terms of, because their whole thing is failing. They want to fail because it means that they're learning and they're experimenting. But I suppose there's quite a lot of brands out there that are probably stifled with that because they may not have the freedom to do this testing and learning.
Is there anything else that they can do to kind of push, how can they push the boundaries without upsetting the powers that be? Yeah, I was like, what do we call them?
Sekai Masunda [00:33:03]:
Yeah, that's a good question. I think it's depending on how much risk you're taking. And so I think it's not like we're testing a million different things. We're still having some things that work and then we'll test maybe one or two things at a time, so it's not being too disruptive of the things that are working. The testing period.
I think for content, what I would usually do is test it for, put some content and test it for a month or so and then you can kind of see how things are going and tweak it accordingly. So it's not like you're kind of like ditching something completely. You're tweaking as you go, so it's not like a complete failure, but also having a team and managers that kind of get brand as well too.
Not everybody is graced with that.
Verity Hurd [00:33:49]:
Nice.
Sekai Masunda [00:33:50]:
But knowing that brand stuff and content isn't going to be an instant, like, converter.
Verity Hurd [00:33:56]:
No, it's a long term strategy.
Sekai Masunda [00:33:58]:
It takes time. And I don't know if I completely answered your question because it's a tough one. It's a tough one.
Verity Hurd [00:34:03]:
But I think we're in a position now where, you know, there was that business of fashion article that came out with like brand marketing is having a resurgence, which is great for us, obviously, and it's great to see that it's having that it's place again where it should be.
Sekai Masunda [00:34:19]:
Yeah. I think also, like brand marketing, there's always been this like tug and pull of like almost like internal teams where it's like it's us and then us and then them. But like, if you think about like brand building a brand is equally sustainable growth. Right?
Like, you can't just rely on like sell, sell, sell quick conversion because at the end of the day that might only lead you to a certain place. But if you're like nurturing a brand just like any human being, anything, and then long term is actually going to be there for the long haul and you'll see other brands that are there for a long time is because they've built a brand that they can sustain the test of time, but also they're evolving it too.
And just like human beings, you can't expect us to stay the same. I think of brands as human beings where they're going to have evolutions of themselves and evolve and grow throughout time. And I think that's also an interesting challenge as well too.
Verity Hurd [00:35:13]:
Speaking of things evolving influence marketing, huge, huge piece that's definitely evolved significantly over the last few years. And we're now seeing sort of the mega, the nano communities becoming like the new mega influencers. Like what, where do you see influencer marketing going in 2025? Like, what, what are some of your predictions?
Sekai Masunda [00:35:37]:
It's hard to say because I think it's constantly changing. But I think I can say for certain is that like, I feel like gone are the days where you're gonna give this person that has a million plus followers and that's gonna, that's gonna come a product and that's gonna convert into sales.
Because I think, like, customers are smart and they value authenticity and the way of that marketing isn't authentic. And we can see how like maybe five years ago, like that was working and now it's kind of going stale.
And those businesses that those influencers had may not have a long term value. The key thing is, like, your customers are your influencers, your customers are your biggest influencers, your biggest advocates. And treating them as such is going to be so key. They want to have a hand in building, like I mentioned, building your brand.
And so like I said, it's not creating a VIP event for influencers, it's creating a VIP event for your customers. Your customers are your VIP's and figuring out ways to nurture them. And that's why I think the influencer trip that our activation that Refi did was so good because you're having your customers and then you're nurturing them and that's how they become brand advocates. And also knowing that anybody right now is an influencer, building a personal brand.
Sometimes as marketers, you and I, we build a personal brand and now we've become influencers. Right.
Also another example I like to think is the change of the publishing industry. It's sad that those local bookshops are kind of dwindling away because you have these big collaborations, but also as an avid book lover, it's now like you have these people on booktalk that are actually becoming influencers as well and shifting and kind of helping the book industry and the public industry continue to rise and have a lot of longevity.
And they are becoming just like they have their own full time jobs, but then also decide they're doing, they're tapping into their own taste communities and things that they love and the shared values that they have and becoming influencers that way. So I think that's like taking that into account.
Verity Hurd [00:37:39]:
I mean, we're all creators now. Like, we're all, it's the social media has completely revolutionized this hyper connected world. And we've, like you said, we've all got our own way of connecting to our own kind of, like, circle of people and that. Yeah, it's incredible, really, to see how that's evolved.
I'm going to end on Brand Advocacy, obviously, if you were to give one piece of advice to brand marketers out there, what would be your tip for kind of turning customers into brand advocates?
Sekai Masunda [00:38:13]:
I think we kind of, throughout this whole conversation, I feel like we've kind of mentioned it, but I think, in short, putting your community first or your fans first, and building a whole unit, a brand universe around that. And so that can be both digitally and also physically.
And so for the examples, digitally could be like creating, like, a content series that surrounds that. That kind of is a nugget of fun and insight that your customers and consumers will love physically. It could be things like creating a coffee table book. It could be things like doing a really good, in store physical brand experience for your customers where they know that your brand has this amazing journey and experience.
I think it's the universe building and it's creating it that way and putting them first. And then also, like I said, closing that distance between your C suite and your community and then also driving that insight into action.
I think those are some of the key things because I think your C Suite is also, like, needs to be in tune to your community and needs to be in tune to your consumers, and they have the power to make action super quickly. And that also translate to things like people being like, are you in my bedroom? How do you know that I wanted this? And then you have people that are, and it being lifelong customers and spreading the word of mouth because you just get them.
And so building that brand universe is, I think, the key to unlocking things, and it depends of how you want to do it. It's based on brand to brand, but finding something and kind of tapping into it with insight and having fun is what's going to work.
Verity Hurd [00:39:49]:
I love the whole brand universe thing.
Sekai Masunda [00:39:51]:
Yeah. It's almost like a Marvel universe thing, building everything.
Verity Hurd [00:39:53]:
It's probably why I love it around it, right? Yeah, I'm a big Marvel girl. Yes. This has been amazing, and I really wish we had longer. But, Sekai, where can people find you?
Sekai Masunda [00:40:03]:
They can find me on LinkedIn. They can find me on Instagram, kind of like those two places, and kind of like I'm on TikTok, kind of perusing on different book talks. And if you're a book girlie or whoever. I'm also on Goodreads and you can kind of follow me there. If you love books and sci-fi and.
Verity Hurd [00:40:23]:
Fantastic, that's kind of like I'm definitely connecting. You sound like my kind of girl.
Sekai Masunda [00:40:29]:
Lovely. Well, so good talking to you.
Verity Hurd [00:40:31]:
Really lovely to talk to you. Thank you very much.
Paul Archer [00:40:35]:
That was another episode of Building Brand Advocacy, the world's top brand building podcast. To find out more about Building Brand Advocacy and how this podcast is part of a bigger plan for our brand building cookbook. Then make sure to search for Building Brand Advocacy in Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts or anywhere else that podcasts are fine and make sure that you click subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes.
Thanks to Duel for sponsoring. To find out more, go to www. Duel . tech – and on behalf of the team here at Building Brand Advocacy, thanks for listening.
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