Michelle Wahler [00:00:00]:
I think the way people spoke about it, once they had it, they loved it. And when I would hear people talk about it, they would say, I love my beyond yoga. And so hearing the my and hearing the love is very rewarding and important when you're building a brand.
Paul Archer [00:00:25]:
Have you ever wondered why some brands grow exponentially, building legions of passionate fans that live and die by their logos and some, well, don't? I do, all the time. And that's probably because I'm a massive brand nerd. But I believe there's a secret sauce at the core of every remarkable brand. A formula that sparks the growth of passionate communities, of superfans, building a business and a reputation that will last for years to come.
In this podcast, we tap into the greatest marketing minds in the world as they share the exact tactics and strategies used to build the world's greatest brands. Dropping actionable insights every brand builder can apply.
My name is Paul Archer and I'm a specialist in Brand Advocacy and word-of-mouth. Having consulted for hundreds of brands on a topic co hosting with me is the wonderful Verity Hurd, expert on the bleeding edge of social media.
It's time to learn and build Brand Advocacy.
Paul Archer [00:01:09]:
Having consulted for hundreds of brands on a topic, co hosting with me is the wonderful Verity herd, expert on the bleeding edge of social media. It's time to learn and build brand Advocacy.
Paul Archer [00:01:21]:
Hello, my name is Paul Archer. Welcome to Building Brand Advocacy. And we are recording this from LA for a very, very special episode with Michelle Wahler, founder of Beyond Yoga. Michelle, welcome.
Michelle Wahler [00:01:32]:
Hi, how are you? Thank you for having me.
Paul Archer [00:01:35]:
Well, you are very welcome. Okay. A little jet lagged, but excited to be here in the middle of a heat wave.
Michelle Wahler [00:01:40]:
As it turns out, it is brutally hot right now.
Paul Archer [00:01:43]:
Brutally hot for anyone who doesn't know, like, who are you? What have you been up to for the past? Well, for your career, basically.
Michelle Wahler [00:01:50]:
Okay, so my name is Michelle and I started a company. I co-founded a company almost 19 years ago. It's called Beyond Yoga. And beyond yoga, for those of you who don't know, is an activewear company that is designed to empower women of all shapes and sizes and really help people feel good in their skin as they are today. We're not an activewear brand like Nike that's like, go out there and push yourself to the limits and shred, or like, let's celebrate who you are today. I never want people to feel like they have to exercise to get into their exercise clothing and you don't have to exercise to wear beyond yoga. But, yeah, so I created this brand, co founded it almost 19 years ago at this point, and almost three years ago, I sold the company to Levi's. And that was an incredible journey as well.
I stayed on for two and a half years as the CEO, and I just stepped down in February of this year. So that is, that's the journey in a nutshell.
Paul Archer [00:02:58]:
Incredible success story. Really keen to dig into that in a little bit more detail. But, like, let's rewind back to those very first few years. When you started doing it, what was the hole you were trying to fill? What was it that you were trying to do when you started the business?
Michelle Wahler [00:03:14]:
So in the beginning, I think it was all about just creating clothing that was for women of all shapes and sizes, and that was going to make women feel really great and confident the moment they put the clothing on. And we wanted, it was really important to me, my business partner, Jodi, that we never photoshopped a woman's body. We really celebrated women as they are and showcased women in a way that people just weren't showing women, you know, almost 20 years ago. So, you know, backing up further, and I feel like this is, like, important to my story. You know, my, I grew up, my dad was an entrepreneur, and I absolutely watched, you know, I spent a lot of my childhood with him and talking about business and, you know, really involved in what was going on with his company. I watched him grow his company from, you know, I mean, it was already happening once I was born, but my childhood, I watched him grow it. I watched him hit high peaks, and then ultimately, I watched him lose his business, too. And so that was really hard to see, to watch his dream kind of, like, crumble.
But I think that that gave me a lot of understanding of what an entrepreneur is like. There's very high highs, and there's also very low lows. And also in my childhood, a very important influence on me was my mom. And my mother is an amazing, beautiful woman. And she, you know, I watched her struggle with self image, and she didn't really see herself the way I saw her, and I think the way so many others did, because she didn't fit this traditional idea of beauty in the sense that she wasn't like a stick skinny woman. She was curvy and just beautiful and smart and all of the things. But I watched her feel like she wasn't enough and always trying to, with diet, culture and everything, conform to something that just wasn't meant to be her body type. And that frustrated me.
And I watched her kind of put some of those, you know, like her desires for herself. I saw her kind of manifesting them and wanting them for me and my friends. And I didn't like that. And I really wanted her to see me as I was and, you know, beyond my physical exterior. And I wanted her to see my friends that way, too. And I saw so many of my friends just having challenges with how they viewed themselves, how they had eating disorders, how they just didn't realize how incredible they were. And that really, that just frustrated me. And I saw that more as I went on in my life, as I went to, you know, as I went on to high school, as I went on to college.
I saw it at the University of Florida. I was a graphic design major. And, you know, I saw that around with the women around me. It frustrated me. And then I moved to New York. I worked in publishing, and I worked at People magazine, and I worked at Harper's Bazaar. And those were incredible experiences for so many reasons. But I also got a firsthand look at, like, all of the photoshopping that goes on.
And it really drove home kind of the idea of, like, how women are shown one way that they're supposed to look. And so that's why when I met Jodie, fast forward many, many years. When I moved to LA, I met Jodie. She had the idea for this company, which is beyond yoga, and the idea to make clothing that was for women of all shapes and sizes and to really embrace that. And I loved that. And I immediately leaned into that. And so when I met her, she told me about the concept. I very quickly, you know, had some ideas for what product could look like.
I sketched things out. I sent it to her. I had just ideas for the business. She called me the next morning, and she was like, I love this. Our relationship is about to change. And pretty much from that point forward, we were business partners. And, yeah, and then I would say from that moment on, I spent the last almost 19 years running, leading and growing beyond yoga. So to the company that it is today.
And then I, of course, just stepped away in February. But it has been an incredible journey.
Paul Archer [00:07:48]:
When you look back in the way that you think about body image and those influences on your life with your mother and then working in publishing, particularly in that era. Right. How were you able to manifest beyond yoga as the antithesis of that?
Michelle Wahler [00:08:05]:
Well, I would say I don't know if I necessarily knew that I was manifesting anything to be the antithesis, antithesis of that, but I was really excited about the idea of creating clothing that was going to be so inclusive. And I love the idea, you know, as we built out our platform and as we had more, got to speak to more people and had more people involved in our brand, like, having the ability to, you know, just say, hey, we're not going to Photoshop and we're going to make this a rule that was really empowering and starting to cast models and, you know, make the conscious decision, hey, we're going to invest not only in, you know, having one model, which was really all we could afford.
Eventually we were like, we need to have more people in these photo shoots, because you can't tell, like, if you just look at one, one woman by herself, it's very hard to tell, you know, the proportions or the scale if you don't put her next to someone else. And so the idea of getting the visual element of inclusivity, you really need to have multiple people together. And so when we got these women of different shapes and sizes and colors together and were able to celebrate them, I felt like that was a way to really show women that beauty comes in so many different shapes, sizes, colors, and embrace that. And a lot of people thought we were nuts. And I had a lot of retailers who said, you know, we don't want to carry, you know, different sizes. We traditionally sell size small.
Like, that's what you need to produce. And we were always of the mindset, like, we know there are so many diverse women out there. Somebody has to make the clothing so they have somewhere to shop that. And we always felt like we were making the best, most comfortable clothing. But I also also told my customers, like, you don't need to buy deep into something, but you do need to let people know that you have this and so show it in your imagery. And we'll always have the product so we can fill in. Don't go too deep, because I don't want people to get burned by buying something where they haven't built out that community and nobody knows to shop there. But you have to let all these women know, you're welcome in my shop, you're welcome in my store.
We have things for you. And so I don't know. That's a long winded way of answering your question.
Paul Archer [00:10:43]:
Well, that's one of the most articulate descriptions of, tactically, how you managed to build brand Advocacy, which I was going to ask you, and maybe we still will. But so looking back there at that kind of time, how different were you?
The idea that you were inclusive in terms of your sizing, I mean, like, that was about the era when Lululemon, who actually we laud pretty highly in this podcast, is one of the best in terms of Advocacy building, community building. That was about the era when Chip Wilson said, we don't make pants for people of different sizes. Like, were you that Lululemon aside, they obviously weren't. But was there anyone else doing it? Were you pretty unique in the market? And then how did that then lead to word of mouth? Were people coming to you because you were so different at the time?
Michelle Wahler [00:11:27]:
I think we were really the most size inclusive company. I'm really happy to say that there are so many companies now that are doing what we did and have embraced that. And it's amazing. Like, I think the idea of size inclusivity is table stakes for a company that is starting right now. And I think that's one of the things that I'm the most proud of. I'm not going to take all the credit for it, but I will say I think that we were some of the. I think we were the ogs for that one. So size inclusivity was always a part of what we were setting out to do.
One of the things that we did that was unique from the beginning was as we were creating the product, we fit all of our products on a size medium, which normal industry standard is to fit on a size small. And then people would, you know, just apply a grade rule and size up and size down. We not only fit on a size small or, sorry, a size medium initially, but then we also would make a full size run and we would try it on real bodies to make sure that we had that grade correct. And that was really important.
For those of you who don't know, the grade is like how much you're going to make, you know, each measurement larger or smaller as you do your size jumps. So we were very intentional with our fit, and that was always super important to us to make sure that we were making product that we really believed in. It wasn't, you know, about making product that we could say did something, but it was something that we wanted to wear ourselves and we wanted to create for our friends and our loved ones and our community. And it really was about the woman who was going to be wearing that clothing.
So that was really, really important to us. And it was just always important. And I remember having conversations with our manufacturing partners. We made everything in the beginning and up until very recently, all in the United States.
Paul Archer [00:13:36]:
Did you?
Michelle Wahler [00:13:37]:
Whereabouts in LA.
Paul Archer [00:13:38]:
Oh, really?
Michelle Wahler [00:13:39]:
And so, you know, it go down to the contractors and, you know, have conversations about what was going on on the lines and really see how our products were being made and the women, men and women behind it. And that was also really cool. But, you know, talking to the manufacturing partners, they're like, we want you to make, you know, they wanted to have smaller, they wanted to have less sizes because it makes it more efficient for them to produce. And I had to negotiate with them and I had to say, like, I promise you we're going to build this, but right now I need you to make five in this size, in this color.
And I know it's not the most efficient thing, but we have to build it so people like, we, we have to put it out there so people know to come to us for it and it will grow and I promise it will grow. And as we expanded our assortment, eventually we ended up expanding to the plus market as well. And it went to one x, two x, three x, four x. And there was a lot of conversation about how the, the costing should be because the manufacturers are charging you more because of the, you know, it takes a longer time to sew, which you wouldn't think about.
And then there's also more fabric. One of the things that I felt very strongly about was that we had to have price parity. Like, you could not charge one person one thing for a legging and charge somebody else something else. I just felt like in my gut, that, that felt like something that was very wrong. And there were a lot of, you know, conflicting business conversations around that. And also, you know, when you went into wholesale, you know, having the conversations about where your margins could be and where you could have, you know, just making sure everybody was aware, like, you have to keep it this way. And not every brand was doing that. And some people were like, oh, we could mark this up more because that's, a lot of other companies are selling these product lines for more and you're not allowed to tell customers, her wholesale partners, what they have to sell product for.
But you can be very clear about your values, that we want to make sure we're inclusive of everybody and that everybody is treated equal across the board.
Paul Archer [00:16:10]:
And I mean, that's something which is inclusivity is a value which is thrown out by so many brands today. But that certainly would have been a bit crazy at the time, particularly when you're going to battle with these manufacturers and everything like that. And at what point we think of this, there's a term of product market fit, which is like a tech term of when, you know, you've built a thing that is the right product for the right market, and then it's that inflection point when things start to move up and there's a lot of trying to figure out who you are in the meantime and what the right thing is. At what point did you just know that you'd had it right? And what was it that people were telling you was the thing that they were coming to you for?
Michelle Wahler [00:16:52]:
I think that we felt like we had it right from very early on, and I don't know if that was if we were right or if we just had early entrepreneurs blindness.
Paul Archer [00:17:07]:
We all get that.
Michelle Wahler [00:17:08]:
Yes. A little entrepreneur's blindness and some built in, like, extra confidence.
Paul Archer [00:17:12]:
Yeah, well, you gotta have that as well. I mean, who's foolish enough to start a business?
Michelle Wahler [00:17:17]:
You have to have a little bit of something wrong with you.
Paul Archer [00:17:20]:
97% failure rate. And if you're like, yeah, I think I'm gonna be the 3%, you've gotta be a little bit loopy.
Michelle Wahler [00:17:26]:
Yes. So I think from the beginning, we really always believed that what we were doing was right, and it was small things that continued to give us the confidence. But anytime I saw somebody wearing beyond yoga out in the world, it was like, that reassured me when, at the time, almost 19 years ago, when we were starting this, there wasn't social media. The way you found out that you made it was if you were in Us Weekly and you saw a celebrity that was buying your product. And so I remember Reese Witherspoon was photographed buying beyond yoga at Jill Roberts, which is a local amazing boutique in Laden. That was like a major reassurance to us. Like, wow, that's really impressive. But also, it was a reassurance to our wholesale partners, and it was a nice validation.
So as we're out there pitching to Nordstrom and Bloomingdale's, they have something tangible to point to when that buyer is taking a risk on you and your new brand. And they're like, oh, well, it was in Us Weekly, and so it gave a little bit of a reason, a little extra boost for the wholesalers to take that initial chance on us. And then once you're in with wholesale partners, getting that sell through and the reorders, that was always really exciting, because we love, I'm a big proponent of wholesale, and I love getting my brand out to so many different wholesale partners. I look at that as marketing. A lot of people look at that as sales. I look at it as sales and marketing. I think that that is a really great way to tell your brand story, what retailers you're in, and a great way to reach new audiences, but you're also making money while that's happening. So getting into an equinox or getting into a, you know, a shop bop, that's great.
And that feels really good and gives you that validation. But what makes you really happy is when they reorder. When they reorder, because getting that first order is. Is like a nod, but when they reorder, that means they sold through because they're not going to buy and continue to invest in you if you are not making them money.
Paul Archer [00:19:58]:
First order is vanity and the second order, that's sanity.
Michelle Wahler [00:20:00]:
That's.
Paul Archer [00:20:01]:
Yes, that's when you know you've got it.
Michelle Wahler [00:20:03]:
Exactly. And then, I mean, if you get put on auto replenishment with one of these big retailers, that's like the most. That's like, true. That's respect. Like, that is the goal.
Paul Archer [00:20:16]:
Got it, mate. I remember when a few years ago with duel and my company, my business partner was walking down the street of this big retail park called Bicester Village in the UK, which is like the outlet centre with loads of different brands. And he was looking around, he was like, we're working with that brand, we're looking with that brand, we're working with that brand. He just liked it, did a little update and it was just like, wow, that's that moment when you're just like, this is really cool. This is how it works.
So when you're thinking about, you mentioned a little bit of early and you're talking about wholesale, because most people listening to this have grown up in a dtc era. There are some companies that don't even know what any of this means because they've only sold DTC because they spun up a shopify and then started doing really well. And that's just the way it is.
And lots of people are now reversing into it once they've become quite big. But you were doing this from day one, but you also said building community. And what happened when people were like, talking about you. But how do you drive community building? How do you drive word of mouth for something when you can't control the dialogue? I mean, are you going in? Are you training store associates in any way? How do you make sure that they tell your brand story? Or is it purely about the quality of the products?
Michelle Wahler [00:21:31]:
It's a great question. So I would love to tell you that in the beginning we went out and we told everybody how to sell, but realistically, it was about the product and that was what told our story in the beginning. And I think that when people touch our fabric and when people put it on, I think that it's going to sound a little hokey, but, like, you almost feel all of the effort that went into creating this product because it really was made and continues to be made with so much love and attention to the woman's body.
Like, there was a lot of people who talked about, like, different brands that were, you know, primarily came in as men's brands, and then they decided to go in. You know, they were like, oh, this women's market is picking up. We should, we should do something for them. And they called it like, we'll shrink it and pink it. And I saw so many brands try to do that and just, you know, not nail the fit.
And it, you know, you would think that some of these people would have been able to come in and completely, you know, knock us off, off of our feet. But we were so focused on making sure that the product was great and that it was going to fit a real woman's body and different curves and all of the different things. And I think that really resonated with the customers. And when they would try our product on versus, you know, maybe some of the bigger names, they realized that our product was the one to go for. And I also think that it continues to, you know, when I, when you learn about a product or you see it maybe the first time and you're at your yoga studio and you're like, oh, there's some stuff there. And then you go on vacation, you're like, oh, there's that brand again. And then you go to pick something up for your camping trip and you're like, oh, Rei, and I'm seeing that brand again. You're seeing all of this support.
It's like, it's not just, it's not just your friends wearing it, but these are large companies and small companies that are investing and carrying it. That's a real, that's a real pat on the back and what's the word? It's brand validation. And I think it gives the consumer confidence to shop your product and know that if, wow, if Nordstrom is notorious for, they'll take anything back. So if they're going to put it on the floor, they must believe in it, right? So I think that that really was a testament to our quality and what.
Paul Archer [00:23:58]:
We were building over that 20 years. I mean, now, now you're out of both Levi's and beyond and you're working with a lot of founders and female founders especially, and you probably see some mistakes and patterns that happen. Like, if you could do it all over again, what would be the one thing that you would have done differently?
Michelle Wahler [00:24:17]:
It's a tough question. I honestly, I'm so happy with where everything landed that I, sometimes I think about what I would have done differently, and then I'm like, you know what, everything happened for a reason. And if I had hired that person or gone deeper on this avenue, maybe we wouldn't have landed exactly where we did. And I feel like we landed in exactly the perfect spot. So I can't go back and criticize anything that we did because you never know. Butterfly effect.
Paul Archer [00:24:50]:
We don't want to get too much into that because it could have changed things. Sometimes when working with earlier stage founders and talking to them about things, you're like, ah, you're doing that thing. You're doing that thing that I did as well, which has what you do at this stage, but if only you knew you would do it differently. Do you ever see anything like that?
Michelle Wahler [00:25:09]:
I do. And one thing that I try to remind founders, you know, it's different for everybody, and there is no one size fits all for everyone. But I try to remind founders, really protect your equity. I feel like so many people right now are just taking on a lot of money, getting valuations that are kind of out outsized and ultimately are going to set them up for an unachievable dream. And I think that, I also think that a lot of people forget to celebrate the wins along the way. Like, everyone gets very focused on the exit. The exit. And for me, I never focused on the exit.
I actually was delusional enough to think that I was going to run this company forever and really wanted to. And we looked at our business business like I wanted to build a sustainable business that would continue to grow. I turned down a lot of opportunities because I didn't want to have really high spikes that were going to drop off, like sustainability and measured growth was important. I didn't want to, you know, triple one year because one massive vendor came in. And then I wasn't sure how it was actually going to play out.
But when we took on a partner, when we took on someone, we had to see the long term plan that we really believed they would be successful, they would continue to reorder, we would be able to grow with them. And I also, I think that a lot of founders right now, besides that equity component, I think that a lot of people are in that d two c mindset only. And I think d two c is amazing and great.
And I have so many wonderful things to say about d two c. But I think people forget how important wholesale can be. And I think it can, if done right, can be very profitable and can really build your brand. And I think it is also very important to control that narrative and make sure that you don't always go into every opportunity that you have, you know, with beyond yoga, even though it was meant to be very inclusive. It was also, we called it attainable luxury because our leggings retailed for roughly $99.
Paul Archer [00:27:41]:
Reassuringly expensive.
Michelle Wahler [00:27:43]:
Reassuringly expensive, exactly. But they will last you for as long as you want to keep them. Pretty much. And, you know, I think that we had a lot of opportunities to go into wider distribution with, with retailers that weren't as high end. And I did not want to do that because I didn't feel like it was going to be right for the brand. And so I thought of every wholesale account that we were opening as a way of telling our brand story. And I knew that even though we didn't open stores until much later in our journey, I wanted to make sure that we were always protecting a full price business and that we were positioning ourselves with stores that matched what I would want to create for a brand store.
Paul Archer [00:28:33]:
So you mentioned your father's journey. How did that affect you and your drive on your journey? That came after, because there had to be some tough times that came after that. How did you manage to stick with it? Because long termism, as you said there, that long term effect, it seems to be one of the overwhelming things that drive Advocacy. And everyone with short term sales over long term brand, you're never going to win. If it's about long term brand, it just leads this amazing compounding machine. But you've got to be patient and you've got to have that mindset. It's incredibly difficult. And so you started out with this, like, how did you keep that grit going the whole way? I mean, two decades is a long time.
Michelle Wahler [00:29:15]:
I really loved what I was doing and I really, to this day, I mean, I'm wearing a beyond yoke top right now. Like, I love what we created and I love the product. I love the brand. I love the team that I was able to put together. And, you know, some days you're doing it for you, some days you're doing it for them. And some, you know, when you can't find your motivation for yourself, I find looking to your team as a really great motivating factor because everybody who I felt this way, anybody who joined me along the way, I felt was taking a risk with their career. And I always felt like everybody's career choices are really important to where their path will be and for them to choose to spend their career with me and to learn and grow and to trust me to craft that experience the right way. I always felt Washington a real gift, but something that I needed to really respect and make sure.
So on days that were hard, making sure I was doing things for my team, always when I couldn't, thinking about myself sometimes didn't work, but thinking about them gave me that extra oomph and.
Paul Archer [00:30:34]:
That servant leadership piece. Employees are the heart of they're your number one advocates. They should be your number one advocates. If they're not going to advocate for you, then no one will. Like how? How did you bait generosity into the business to ensure that that happened?
Paul Archer [00:30:52]:
Hey, it's me again. This podcast is sponsored by Duel, which is my company, actually. Duel is the leading Brand Advocacy platform used by the top retail consumer brands, including Unilever, Charlotte Tilbury, Elemis Loop, and about 50 more to manage, measure and scale their Advocacy member, affiliate, creator and brand ambassador operations. The platform offers unparalleled scale for complex brands by automating nine out of ten of the standard Advocacy management activities and allowing them to focus on arming their Advocates with the right tools to tell the brand story and drive Social Commerce, they can grow faster for less.
We only work with 15% or so of the brands we speak to, but we try and add value in many other ways, this podcast being one of them. So if you are a brand that's interested in this, maybe a large consumer retail brand, ideally you're doing $20-$30 million as a minimum, and you're pretty advanced on social and you need to know what the next stage is, then please get in touch. Email me at paul@duel.tech, that is Paul @ D, U, E, L Dot T, E, C, H or Google Duel dot Tech.
Michelle Wahler [00:31:58]:
You know, in the very beginning, or from pretty much the first day, I should say the first employees that we had, we always said we're going to give every person who's a part of the beyond yoga team, we're going to give them three pieces of clothing. And we did that for many reasons. One, we wanted them to feel what we were talking about, we wanted them to know what the brand was and we wanted us all to be wearing it. But I also wanted to hear their feedback. And I think that I learned very early on that a players like to work with a players. And when we were able to hire great people, that not only was a great opportunity for me to have these people working at beyond yoga, but it became a recruitment tool. If this woman was willing to come from this amazing background and come to this startup, then that was something that I could share with other people that were interviewing, and then people would follow, great people. And so all of a sudden, the most incredible people and women were joining the company.
And that, that created a groundswell within itself because we were never the company that was going to pay the most because we couldn't afford to, but we could give great benefits. And that was always something really important to me. And my husband Jesse, who was our COO and CFO, was really making sure that we were taking care of the team. And he took so much joy in making sure that all of our benefits were like top notch. And he would spend time talking to every new employee and find out what type of computer they wanted and what type of equipment they needed. And he was a really big believer in making sure that you give your team all the tools and all of the resources so they can do the best possible job they can at the company. And it's interesting to see. I really spent my entire career almost at beyond yoga.
And so this just feels like the way things are supposed to be. But it's really funny for me now to look at what is going on at other companies and see how they may say, like, everybody must have this monitor and have this tool because we have this deal and it's like, oh, but that's not great for creatives, or that's not great for somebody who may be a little bit older and needs that larger monitor or really lean into what your team needs and give that to them. And I think they feel that so much, and I think they appreciate that as well. And that makes them more excited to be a part of something where they're being valued and cared for.
Paul Archer [00:35:04]:
How many people were beyond yoga when you sold it?
Michelle Wahler [00:35:07]:
At the time of our sale, I think we were around 70 employees. At the time that I left, I think we were around 120 corporate. That doesn't include how many people were at our stores. And we had six stores when I.
Paul Archer [00:35:24]:
You must have interviewed hundreds, no, thousands probably of people at this sort of stage. And so you're saying you're looking for a players, like, what's, how do you find a players? Like, what's the standout thing you're looking for? What's your killer interview question? What is it that you do to find those people?
Michelle Wahler [00:35:38]:
I mean, I love people, so I tend to see the positives in everybody, but I really like to hear about people who have broad shoulders. I used my interviews a lot of times almost to scare people. And I would tell them I was not hardcore selling beyond yoga. I was telling them about all the things that were going to be really challenging and how we didn't have an IT department. And if your computer breaks, you need to go to the Apple store or figure it out. And I really tried to almost scare people off. If I found that somebody still had the passion and the grit and resilience to want to be a part of it, that was a very telling thing for me.
Paul Archer [00:36:29]:
It's amazing. And then it sort of speaks for itself, doesn't it, that you try and anti sell it and then you're probably going to often be a little bit keen because you're so honest.
Michelle Wahler [00:36:39]:
I am very honest and very transparent. And some people love that and some people are terrified by it.
Paul Archer [00:36:45]:
So you've got this sort of idea of teams and Advocacy, and you were giving them. Was it three different items for every single person that came in?
Michelle Wahler [00:36:54]:
Yes, we had that. And then, I mean, some of the things that we did, we always shut down the company between Christmas and New Year's. And that was, we called it a, we called it a soft break and we just let people work from wherever they were. And now that, that obviously seems very silly to everybody because that is what everybody does all the time. But it was pretty unique, and that didn't count against their vacation time. That was just so people could make sure they were home for the holidays. Still, the expectation was like, you stay on top of your email and if you're needed, you're available. But we tried to tell everybody, like, don't have meetings during this week if possible, and if you really needed to be on vacation, take your vacation time.
But we gave that as a, an extra way to help people recharge. We had tons of different ideas, like, I don't know, we tried to encourage people to take public transportation. There was all sorts of different things that we did. Things ebbed and flowed. And I learned a lot along the way. Certainly learned a lot about having a company of 90% females. I learned a lot about, you know, how to be supportive of women as they're going through different life stages, you know, weddings and babies and, you know, all of the different, you know, people who are struggling with infertility and, you know, there's so many different journeys and getting to try to just to learn how to support people during that. Washington an incredible part of the journey for me.
And I think that made the culture at beyond yoga unique because after a certain point, I feel like we nailed it. In the beginning, I don't think that I was the best. But after having experience of being through some of these things with women and living through a lot of the things myself, I was able to be a really good supporter and that was important.
Paul Archer [00:39:07]:
That's amazing. And it's crazy how it's all changed and different expectations of things now. And Covid, I mean, Covid has accelerated that understanding, I think, so much, and made it so much more acceptable, particularly for mothers who I think, for me personally, I have a massive bias towards hiring mothers. I'm not sure I'm allowed to say that if there's probably something wrong about this, but every single time I'm like, yeah, absolutely. Just ability to deliver and operate, I'm just like every single time that throws me in a different direction. And I think that it's that ability that we live in now where people can work for anyone. They have that flexibility. They are able to move in and out and weave their lives in a way that works for them.
Now, there's a lot of downsides to it, but it also just makes it. It opens up so many people who you wouldn't have been able to work with previously in different continents, in different countries, different people at different life stages, all of those various things. It's really, really exciting and wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for that global pandemic.
Michelle Wahler [00:40:08]:
And on the flip side of that, it also, when you are able to open up all of those things, because at first I was like, oh, my gosh, we can hire people who work here, here and here, and that's going to be amazing. And then I didn't realize all the different complications that come with that too. As you're dealing with taxes and then it changes. And being part of Levi's, I had the opportunity to see what it's like to be part of a global organization. When we were acquired, I ended up joining the senior leadership leadership team or the executive leadership team at LS and company, which was an incredible opportunity. It's basically like twelve people who are, you know, the top leaders of the Levi's, the Ellison Co. Company. And watching what goes on for a global organization is so different than what it was like for me at beyond yoga and just, you know, thinking, like, thinking about my company in terms of, oh, there was a fire here, there was a shooting here.
How are we going to support people? That's one level. When you get to the next level where it's global, it's like, okay, now there's a war, Russia's invading Ukraine. What are we going to do with our stores in Russia? What are we going to do with our employees in Russia? There are so many variables that go as you expand. So I do caution everybody to really make sure that you're thinking through all of the, all sides of it. Every meeting that we had at Levi's, we had to either have two of them or we would alternate because you have people on the other side of the globe.
So there's a lot more that goes into becoming a global organization. Even though it can sound really amazing to have different vantage points and be able to have talent from different people, you have to make sure that you are thinking about what does it really mean to bring that person on, and will I be able to support that person in China? You know, the same way I can support my team here? And are we really set up to do it? Because it can be. It can be very lonely for that other, that person being on their own and then having to conform to all of the ways, ways that a US led company is.
So don't forget to think about that side of it, too.
Paul Archer [00:42:43]:
And because you've seen both sides of it, what is it most people don't know about global orgs coming from pretty small and growing up and everything like that, and then suddenly going into one of the biggest fashion brands in the world. What's the thing that they don't know? What should we all forgive these massive businesses for? Because it's really, really hard at that scale, or they can just do in a way that we just cannot get ahead of brand.
Michelle Wahler [00:43:09]:
I mean, they have such amazing HR departments that can take care of their people and, you know, and that, you know, they, there's so much that goes into it. I also, you know, one thing I didn't really think about before I joined the team at Levi's was looking at the different currencies and how that impacts. You know, you may be doing better in one area and worse in another, but because of the, you know, the currency and the exchange rate, that changes your projections. And that wasn't something that I had ever thought about before.
You know, there's so many things. You know, there was a big obvious contrast between, beyond yoga pre acquisition and Levi's is we were a privately held company and, you know, we are a privately held company that had never taken on any investment beyond our initial startup fund, our startup seed round. So we all of a sudden were working for a company that was publicly traded. And the pressures and the focus on what needs to happen for the markets and how.
There's always a sense of, okay, you know, I've always been a leader that is very large on transparency. And not to say that they are not at Levi's, they absolutely are, but there's market regulated rules of what you can share and win. And that was also a big learning to see the difference between publicly and privately held companies.
Paul Archer [00:44:50]:
And it obviously worked out pretty well. What was, what was something that you said yes to along the journey that just really worked that no one else would have said yes to?
Michelle Wahler [00:45:00]:
I think that one of the things that I said yes to has to do with our space dye fabric. So I remember, you know, when I found the fabric and I touched it and it was so soft, and I was like, oh, my God, this is amazing. Everybody needs to wear this fabric on their body. And I remember talking to the sales rep at the, at the fabric mill, and they're like, you don't want to get into that. That is expensive. And I was like, I don't care. This is what people need. And I'm really glad that I did that because that became a huge pillar of our brand.
And I also, I'm really glad that, but my team said to me originally when I found that fabric, I was like, oh, this is going to be our seasonal interest fabric. But it wasn't supposed to be the main fabric, and I had it slotted for one season, and immediately the sales team and our customers, when they saw it, they were like, you're going to keep this going. We're going to get this again. I am very glad I said yes to that because it wasn't part of our merchandising plan. But I put it, and I'm sure everybody realizes that when fashion companies are building something, they're working very far in the future, and, you know, you're probably a year out from production, if not more, when you're selling things in. And so to pivot and put things into the line that weren't planned meant that we were expanding our SKU assortment and hustling to figure out how to get fabric. And so that's definitely something I'm very glad that I said yes to. And it definitely changed the trajectory of the business.
Paul Archer [00:46:55]:
Why was that? Do you think that it was the thing that what was happening to Sarah on the street, who didn't know who you were, bought them at Nordstrom and then went to a yoga class or something? Like, was she telling other people were telling her friends? Were they commenting on it? Because it looked different. Like, how do you think that that word of mouth, in fact, what do you know? How did that happen?
Michelle Wahler [00:47:18]:
I think the way people spoke about it, once they had it, they loved it. And when I would hear people talk about it, they would say, I love my beyond yoga. And so hearing the my, and hearing the love is very rewarding and important when you're building a brand and knowing how, when I would ask people how they found out about it, a lot of people were finding out through word of mouth and through their friends. And when you, when you love something, you share it with your friends. And that is how we, you know, ultimately gained a lot of our early, a lot of our early customers. But then down the road, I remember, I remember we once, you know, once we launched our, our website, and, I mean, we had many iterations, and then we had our Shopify site, which I love Shopify. And then we would have surveys at the end of every, every purchase. And, you know, finding out how people found out about us was really interesting as well.
And then looking at your net promoter score and seeing how people, you know, love the product and wanted to share it and were likely to share it, you know, that, that all builds that leads to it.
Paul Archer [00:48:35]:
Were you able to amplify it in any way? Did you do anything like that?
Michelle Wahler [00:48:38]:
We always were trying to amplify. I think one thing that really helped, because I don't remember what the name of the tool that helped us aggregate all of our reviews was, but we had reviews on all of our wholesale partners, and then we had reviews on our website, and a lot of times, the styles, we would take a style down and put a new style up, but it was the same style but a different color. And so being able to aggregate all of the reviews on that product really helped drive home that story of, hey, guys, we're not just the new brand you found out about on Instagram, because there are so many of those. And letting people know, we always put in our marketing since 2005 because that helps people realize that we're not a fly by night company. If you invest close to $100 for a pair of leggings, there's a reason that they cost what they do. People love them. They will last. I think letting people know that we've been around and so many people have bought the product, and then when you see all of these five star reviews that years and years in the making, I think that also gives customers a really good sense of being able to trust your product.
Paul Archer [00:50:04]:
Nice. It's not the latest contestant from the Bachelor who's just released their latest yoga line last year on TikTok. This is OG, been around for two decades. We were here first.
Michelle Wahler [00:50:16]:
Exactly. Exactly.
Paul Archer [00:50:19]:
Okay, so obviously you've now left Levi's. I mean, wow, what adventure all the way through. Like, what are you excited about now?
Michelle Wahler [00:50:27]:
I'm excited about so much. This has been the first time in such a long time that I've just been able to take a moment and breathe. You know, it's been an 18 and a half year sprint and I. I.
Paul Archer [00:50:44]:
Think that's how sprint works.
Michelle Wahler [00:50:47]:
I know. And, you know, I have to say thank you to, like, my friends and my family who stayed with me even when I was so heads down in my business, I did not. I just didn't make time for anything outside of my friend, of my business and my family. And it was very rare that I made time to even spend with friends. And the people who loved me through that, I know are my real friends. So thank you. I actually. It's funny, I ended up hiring my husband once we got married.
We spent the last ten years building beyond yoga with me, but our whole ethos was building this brand and we spent day and night thinking about this, talking about this. And it's really nice for both of us to have a moment, to just take a step back and enjoy being married but not working together. And I think it's really nice to be able to just be with my children in a less pressured environment. I always was a strong advocate that when I came home from work, I needed to be completely engaged with them. So from 06:00 until I put them down for bed at 730, I really did not look at my phone, did not answer calls or emails because I wanted to be so focused with them. And then after, after I went to bed, I would, you know, get back, or after they went to bed, sorry, I would get back on it and start replying to people and keep going. And that's a draining existence. And so I'm really excited that, you know, now I have this opportunity to just spend more time with my kids and with my husband, but also I have had this opportunity.
I don't know if this has always been here or if it's new in Ladenhead. There is so much going on in the female founder community and I was just oblivious to it before, but I'm really enjoying leaning into that. And so I've been meeting so many amazing female founders, you know, women who are, you know, further along in their careers than me, women who are just getting started, but we're kind of all coming together and just being a support in one way or another to each other. And I, there's fantastic events happening. I've been attending them, I've been speaking at them. I just love meeting people. One thing that I did that I think is kind of odd. When I was at Beyond Yoga, I was so focused on building beyond yoga, I never really thought about my brand as an individual.
I just thought about my brand as beyond yoga and being separated from the company, like, obviously, I'll never be separated. I'm the co founder. But not being there day to day, it made me realize that I always felt like I had a way of helping people because I would be like, oh, I can feature you on our female founder shop, or I could do this, or I could do that. And I realized that I was the person who never built my own individual brand. And we did so many events and so many amazing things that I'm so proud of. When I was at beyond yoga and my team would always be like, oh, we want to tag you. And I was always like, no, I'm behind the scenes. And now I'm realizing that that may have been a detriment because I probably, I mean, would have.
I just got on social media as a, you know, as an individual at the beginning of the summer, so. But I want to be able to promote so many more women and, like, talk more about them, and that's kind of, of my goal, so. But I'm excited to just figure out different ways to support women. And, you know, so I've been meeting so many incredible people through LinkedIn and Instagram and these events, and then I am just trying to pay it forward. And I've been having just so much fun meeting with these female entrepreneurs and hearing their stories and seeing if there's anything I can do to help. And sometimes it's just listening, sometimes it's just being someone for them to just talk about how hard it is and I'm there. Or sometimes it's like they have a real need. Like, I want to build my direct to consumer business, or I need a connection to somebody who is a marketer or whatever the case may be.
But it's really nice to get to connect people. And now that I'm meeting so many different people can connect these founders to each other as well. So I think that's what I'm the most excited about right now. But there's so much happening, and it's just an exciting time to be in LA, and it's nice to not be working full time in the traditional sense.
Paul Archer [00:56:11]:
Amazing. And where can people, particularly female founders, find you?
Michelle Wahler [00:56:16]:
I would say Instagram is the best place. And my Instagram is Michelle Wahler, so it's Michelle W a h l e r. That's how I've been communicating with most people.
Paul Archer [00:56:28]:
Amazing. Michelle, thank you so much. This has been really, really fun and good luck. I can't wait to see what the next chapter has for you.
Michelle Wahler [00:56:34]:
Thank you.
Paul Archer [00:56:37]:
That was another episode of Building Brand Advocacy, the world's top brand building podcast. To find out more about Building Brand Advocacy and how this podcast is part of a bigger plan for our brand building cookbook, then make sure to search for Building Brand Advocacy in Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or anywhere else that podcasts are fine. And make sure that you click subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. Thanks to dual for sponsoring. To find out more, go to www.dual.tech. That's D U A L dot T E C H and on behalf of the team here at Building Brand Advocacy, thanks for listening.
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