Jo Bird [00:00:00]:
There's a difference between just making money transactionally because there'll always be people prepared to buy regardless of the circumstance. But then the people that actually advocate for you, some people will buy from brands that they will never admit they buy from. And some of those brands have incredibly high followings across social media as well. But does that mean I'd advocate for the brand? No. And that's a different conversation. And advocacy is your long term plan. If you don't have that, you might not survive the next 1020 years.
Paul Archer [00:00:40]:
Have you ever wondered why some brands grow exponentially, building legions of passionate fans that live and die by their logos and some, well, don't? I do, all the time. And that's probably because I'm a massive brand nerd. But I believe there's a secret sauce at the core of every remarkable brand. A formula that sparks the growth of passionate communities, of superfans, building a business and a reputation that will last for years to come.
In this podcast, we tap into the greatest marketing minds in the world as they share the exact tactics and strategies used to build the world's greatest brands. Dropping actionable insights every brand builder can apply.
My name is Paul Archer and I'm a specialist in Brand Advocacy and word-of-mouth. Having consulted for hundreds of brands on a topic co hosting with me is the wonderful Verity Hurd, expert on the bleeding edge of social media.
It's time to learn and build Brand Advocacy.
Verity Hurd [00:01:35]:
Hello and welcome to building brand advocacy. I am so excited to welcome today's guest. She is noted as a top creativity and innovation voice on LinkedIn with over 60,000 followers, ten years industry experience, a creative author and a speaker. Welcome, Jo.
Jo Bird [00:01:51]:
Thank you so much. I wish I could have that intro every time I walk into a room.
Verity Hurd [00:01:56]:
You can. Your wish is my command.
Jo Bird [00:01:57]:
That's amazing.
Verity Hurd [00:01:59]:
Do you want to? I mean, you've currently worked with some iconic brands, like previously, Lounge Underwear, Gymshark. I know our audience would love to just hear a little bit around your backstory how you kind of got into the creative industry and especially with some of those amazing brands.
Jo Bird [00:02:13]:
Yeah, of course. So I'm a Brummie girl, born and bred, went down to university in Cheltenham to study photography because apparently that is a degree that you can choose.
Verity Hurd [00:02:23]:
I did dance, so, yeah.
Jo Bird [00:02:25]:
Okay. You understand? On paper it sounded great. Nobody's ever asked to see that certificate, by the way, so I don't know why. So I went to do that with the intention of pursuing a creative career because it was kind of my thing in school, like I'd love to draw. I'd just be in art class geeking out. So yeah, I just wanted to pursue and see where that could take me. But the thing with creative careers is nobody really knows where it can take you and they can't give you that advice. So I really had to do a lot of feeling out and just figure it out as I went along.
Try a lot of different job roles, flipped from job to job until something sort of stuck for me. But I think your twenties is the time to experiment with that. And I really did throw myself in and just give things a go. So I worked in a photography studio. I worked for Rankin, who's an amazing fashion portrait photographer, celebrities. I worked in a handbag store, an art gallery, and then I kind of settled down as a graphic designer for a little bit and sort of really started to craft some more technical skills so I could really learn the industry and what's important. And then from there I progressed. Eventually got a job at gymshark, which was an amazing way to put together all the skills I'd learned in my twenties from like photography to graphic design.
Everything kind of came together within one brand and a very exciting brand as well.
Verity Hurd [00:03:48]:
Yeah, definitely.
Jo Bird [00:03:49]:
So that was kind of like my in to being a creative in house.
Verity Hurd [00:03:53]:
Yeah, amazing. And then obviously previously just finished with lounge underwear and now full time self employed.
Jo Bird [00:04:01]:
Now I'm solo. Yeah. And I think it's been brewing for quite a while, if I'm honest. Like I from quite an entrepreneurial family, so I've been around people that have been doing their own thing for basically my entire life. So I sort of felt like it was going to go that way at one point. So through circumstance it happens. Sometimes you need a kick up the bum to get going and I've just absolutely loved it so far.
Verity Hurd [00:04:24]:
So amazing.
Jo Bird [00:04:24]:
Maybe ask me in a few months when I'm feeling a little bit more.
Verity Hurd [00:04:28]:
Haggard, but no, no, no, you're going to absolutely smash it, I can tell. So I'm going to go straight in on your LinkedIn banner is I help brands cut through the noise and I think that is such an important topic to kind of talk about now. I know that when I'm kind of like scrolling through my social media, there's literally like 1% of brands and even creators that maybe catch my attention. I just wanted to kind of dig into that a little bit more. Like, in terms of what does that mean to you? In terms of how brands are breaking out and like, what are the steps? Like, I want to kind of get quite tactical here. What are the steps that brands can do to kind of cut through that noise?
Jo Bird [00:05:06]:
Yeah, I mean, great question. There's some standout brands at the moment that everybody's talking about and I still work with brands on creative direction and they'll reference the exact same brands. So that's how I know it means your liquid deaths, your surreal, your gym sharks. Like, we want to be a bit more like them. And it's like, why? Like, what is it about those brands that you want to be like? Because I've put together creative ideas that are very in line with what they do and then it terrifies them. So I'm like, okay, let's dig deeper. Is it just the talkability that you're after? Is it the brand awareness? Is it the engagement? But it's funny, a couple of years ago, I went to Cannes lion festival and this was two years ago. One of the biggest topics of the talking point of the festival was brands should be thinking about return on involvement, not just return on investment.
Verity Hurd [00:05:56]:
Oh, nice.
Jo Bird [00:05:57]:
And I really liked that phrase because I think in the marketing industry, we're so used to hearing ROI. What's the ROI? And it becomes very metric driven and it completely sidesteps the fact that we're in a very emotive industry. Sometimes you can't put numbers against the emotion and the feeling and it's like having the X Factor, you know, what is it about Gymshark? What is it about liquid death that we're all so invested in? And I genuinely think it's because people feel involved in their journey. People are really rooting for them. And I think if you can try and create that, this idea of co creation and taking people along that journey with you, I think that's where the magic is happening.
Verity Hurd [00:06:38]:
Yeah. Interesting, because I know, like the surreals, obviously, they're relatively new, right? I don't know how long they've been around for, but they just seem to just come out with it straight away and it's like. And then brands are. That have been around a long time, are still struggling to find that magic. And it's just kind of like, what's, how have they done it? Versus a brand that have been around for ages and now they're trying to. I mean, that's another thing I wanted to ask you about, actually, is can brands develop a signature style that can't be copied? And if so, is there a formula to that, do you think?
Jo Bird [00:07:11]:
Well, firstly, if you've got a good style, people will copy you regardless. Okay, so I mean, when gymshark got going and people started to know who they were, I look at all the leggings, brands that popped up everywhere, that copied the kind of logo style and, like, the style of imagery and everything, but that's a sign that you're getting it right. People want to follow in your footsteps, but I would genuinely say if you can dig deep to find out who you are as a brand.
So what's your personality? I think the word personality is really great because it gives that human essence again, it likens your brand to a person and that's that emotive element that we need to try and figure out if we're going to be engaging and if we're going to be talkable. It's the magic zest, you know?
So when you start to sit down and try and iron out your personality traits as a brand, like, who are you? What do you stand for? Why were you born? It very quickly filters out the people that are just transactional and those who have something deeper and usually those that have something a bit deeper, the ones that are successful is the transactional ones that get caught out kind of quickly.
Verity Hurd [00:08:15]:
Yeah.
Jo Bird [00:08:15]:
So I think that whole therapy process doesn't have to be fully formed strategy as such, because you scale up brands, your strategy will change a lot and evolve, and evolving is very important. You should always have, like, a core baseline to who you are and why you're doing this in the first place.
Verity Hurd [00:08:32]:
When you say personality, do you mean like sort of like brand values?
Jo Bird [00:08:36]:
Yeah, but I kind of don't like the phrase brand values because I think they've become quite corporate and I've seen it previously where they get slapped all over the wall in the office and everybody just sees them as a buzzword and it's like they just put them into every deck and every pitch and it's like, this is what we believe. But do you really believe that or you just think you've come up with that because you think it sounds good and that's what people want to hear. And I genuinely feel like Gymshark got it so right because, and don't get me wrong, it wasn't a straight line in the time I was there. We explored a lot of different avenues and routes for who we should be as a brand, but they went back to who they were at birth, which was people who just love the gym. Like just going back to the gym, you know, kids that just want to feel like they belong somewhere. From Birmingham, you know, really underdog in style and you've got your nikes and your addies, and that's who they are. That's who they are in the friendship group, the underdog that just wants to do well. So I think it's just about digging deep and finding out that.
And, yeah, I've kind of gone off the phrase brand values because that's kind.
Verity Hurd [00:09:35]:
Of what I was meaning, because I don't like the terminology brand values because I agree with you 100%. Like, they get kind of. I remember being at House of Fraser and that was in their head office. It was very corporate y, all these words, and really, like, none of us really believed it. The big guys at the top just came up with some words and it's kind of like, how do you go from that to actually really embedding it between not only the leadership team, but all the way through to particularly brands that have got store employees as well. How do you do that as a brand?
Jo Bird [00:10:09]:
I think passion is a hugely important thing and it's got to be genuine. But the brands that you see where from the top, because it does go from top down. So the people at the top do really need to consider the fact that they are the leading example and people will follow in their footsteps on everything they say and do. I think sometimes they forget that when it becomes a bit corporate, but it's incredible the impact they have. I think it's really about it being a genuine. And coming from a really, really, I hate to say authentic place. Again, another buzzword. But it.
You can try and be authentic or you can just be authentic. It's not hard to be authentic if what you're saying is what you believe.
Verity Hurd [00:10:50]:
Yeah.
Jo Bird [00:10:50]:
And I do think that people feel, like, scared to believe in things nowadays because they don't want to upset another group of people or exclude anyone. But you literally can't please everyone. It's like human beings. The things that I'm interested in, you might not be interested in. And that's okay. We don't need to, as long as it's not radical. Like, you don't need to agree in the same things. But maybe that would make you more fond of me because you'd be like, oh, wow, you really stand for something.
I love that. Whereas if I was just a sit on the fence kind of girl, you'd be like, I'm not sure I trust you. Do you know what I mean? You'd be like, what are you hiding? And there's a lot of brands doing that. We'll just sit on the fence. We won't say anything in particular. And they forget an audience, be like, I don't know what you're about.
Verity Hurd [00:11:36]:
Yeah. And I think that's when the carbon copies kind of kick in, though, isn't it? Because even in the creator industry, like, you know, I follow a lot of creators and I love some of them and, you know, some of those are just kind of in there and it's when they all kind of do the same thing over and over and then brands are then doing it because there's this, like, rulebook with social media and like, you know, we've spoken about it before, it's like how, you know, brands just need to rip it up and just, like you said, just go back to all the core values and what they really stand for.
Jo Bird [00:12:05]:
And the problem is the algorithm, the curse of the algorithm. So obviously, all the brands need to, from an organic point of view, you know, grow their following online, like the modern day brand awareness, isn't it? And so they know that certain types of content will serve the algorithm and it'll get boosted and they'll get their free brand awareness or whatnot.
Verity Hurd [00:12:25]:
Yeah.
Jo Bird [00:12:25]:
It is problematic because what you see off the back of it, and I've seen these brands, they become a copy of each other. They're all just clones. They're all doing the same thing. There's a difference between jumping on a trend on social media and then just being part of that and not really having definition anymore. Yeah, I think the brands that really win are the ones that say, yeah, we're going to jump on a trend in our own way, but we're also going to set the trends. And some brilliant examples are like euduolingos that were like, right, mascots, that's our trend. Or your sisters and seekers that were like, right, show business music videos, that's our trend. And there's so many more examples.
I was looking at Scrub Daddy, the little smiley face, right? They are so popular on TikTok, I don't know if you've seen them. Right. Because I was like, what is going on? There's a dish thing and their content is so low budget. It's like someone's hand that's just filming his stiff bottle in a script. It's just. But they've just rinsed and repeated it. They've got millions of followers for this little smiley thing. I'm just like, well, every household cleaning product now is gonna be looking at your account going, oh, we should do that kind of content.
It's just hilarious.
Verity Hurd [00:13:35]:
But then this is that guy who did the cucumber recipes. Yes, Logan, it's like what you said, it's kind of like a rinse and repeat thing. But then I can imagine brands looking at these things, particularly brands that are a bit more high end, and they're probably thinking, I know I've spoken to marketers and they've gone, there's no way our leadership team is going to buy into TikTok, for example, just as a platform as it is, because they see things like that and they're like, that just doesn't relate to our brand at all. And I know there's. And you kind of mentioned it earlier around, like, they see examples and they want to do it, but then they get scared and it's. Have you ever had conversations like that with, like, how do you kind of. How do you get them from there to, okay, let's do this then.
Jo Bird [00:14:18]:
Oh, yeah. Many conversations. Many, many conversations. I mean, my strategy is always, let's just look at the examples. Let's look at brands that are killing it and just have that conversation over their content. I think in rooms before, I've shown everything from urinaires that do things like really slapstick, let's just take the piss. And then you've got your more premium brands, like your Jacques Mousse, who are doing really beautifully crafted spectacle kind of work that's very artistic and inspired by art movements. And that's a really premium example of what can be done.
So I think it's nice to try and get examples and show, look, there's not one way to do this. We can explore all different avenues and try and find the one that works for us. But what we can't avoid is experimentation. Because I would. And put money on the fact that all of these brands that have, like, nailed it on paper had a period of time where they just threw some the wall and to see what sticks, you know, I don't think. I think creativity, you've got to have that. That process in between. We just only see the headlines because that's all we actually want to see.
But I think there's so much more to it than that. And then my other advice is, if you're trying to pitch constantly to. To do something, try and turn it into action. So if you can be proactive to sort of film something, see if you can make it work yourself, because you may have the idea in your head and it might sound great, but in practice, it actually comes out pretty terrible.
Verity Hurd [00:15:43]:
And you're like, I've been there. Yeah.
Jo Bird [00:15:45]:
You're like, I really convinced myself that was a brilliant idea and now I'm trying to make it work and it's not looking as I thought. But also, you can lead a horse to water and you can't make them drink. So if it's somebody else's brand and they do not want to do something, you can't force them. So you can give everything under the sun as an example, you can even give it a try to see if you can prove it physically. But at the end of the day, you can't force people to do what they do not want to do and they don't believe in, because if they don't believe, it might not work.
Verity Hurd [00:16:13]:
Yeah, true. Do you think experiential marketing is the way forward?
Jo Bird [00:16:18]:
I don't know if it's experiential marketing specifically. I think what's happened is a lot of brands that have formed online in a digital space have realized that there's a limit to the connections they can make in that space. And so they've realized that by taking the connection offline, the connection becomes so much more deep rooted. It's kind of like dating, I guess. So you meet someone on a dating app and you can get so far with it, and you can enjoy the conversation and enjoy them and paint a picture of everything in your mind and it feels good. But when you actually go on a physical date, the potential from there is kind of endless. You feel so much more emotional towards the person. You see them, you smell them, you get the interaction.
It's a different level of connection. So, sure enough, you can just exist in a digital space. There are brands that have done that, but if you want to go that step further, I think taking it into a physical space creates this kind of all round experience that's much more legacy building.
Verity Hurd [00:17:20]:
And is that. Are you sort of like, thinking about community events?
Jo Bird [00:17:25]:
It could be community events, but also, I'm sure you've seen the trend where brands in marketing will have, like, a physical, out of home activation, but then photograph it and it does the rounds on the Internet as well. Yeah, it's a bit of a psychological move, really, because what people are seeing is you exist in the real world, but they're seeing that online, but you're bridging the gap for them. So those artworks that you see that have literally been photoshopped into a billboard, nine out of ten of them aren't real. They've not paid thousands of pounds to have a billboard. They've pretended, but they're tricking our brains to think, oh, you exist in reality. I trust you. Now. You're familiar.
I could see you when I'm walking down the street, like you are so much more than just a pixel. And I think that is a very interesting tactic. So, yes, from an experience point of view, for me to go and meet a brand and see it in real life and go to an event, shop the product in real life, but also.
Verity Hurd [00:18:19]:
Just from a marketing point of view, that's really interesting. And you talk a lot about campaigns on LinkedIn, which is really fascinating, and I love that kind of content where you break it down. What do you think are the elements of a successful 360 campaign?
Jo Bird [00:18:35]:
Great question. I think they are very much evolving and changing. Now, what was a traditional 360 campaign has become a lot more geared towards digital because of the nature of social media and what that has done to the industry. Traditionally in ad agencies, it would be all about, what's the big idea? What's the big idea? And that is the home of our entire campaign.
Another quote I love is if your message is literal, then you can go lateral. So traditionally, people would nail that literal message and then they would start thinking outside the box on ways they could execute. Whereas now, and I know this from the experience of the brands that I've worked for, which are very social, native brands, most of the thinking starts with the execution, because the brains are going straight to where it's going to end up, which is content. So I could be in a room pitching this big idea and everybody would say, yeah, cool, but what's the TikTok? And your brain is like, oh, I kind of haven't got that far.
In my head, I was just thinking of the message. But it's really tricky because I always was like, yeah, I actually get your point that you want to know how that actually then exists in the world or in the digital world. But also, I don't think we can let go of what the big idea is. So to answer the question about 360 campaigns, I think, I don't know if they fully exist anymore. I think they do, but I don't think they are. These modern challenger brands, first priority, because they know that with a lower budget, they can reach more people by doing it in a digital way.
Verity Hurd [00:20:02]:
That's really interesting. How do you see content trends developing for 2025? Is anything standing out?
Jo Bird [00:20:10]:
Yeah, so, I mean, we've seen a lot of brands move towards the broadcast channels and TikTok live, and I think it circles right back around to the idea of co creation and saying to the audience, we're not just going to shout messaging at you. We're not just going to keep serving you content for you to scroll and enjoy. We actually want your opinion.
Now, a brand that we've referenced a lot, when I was at lounge was REFY because they were kind of one of those brands to be in this aspirational space, but to try the broadcast channel to treat it like an ongoing drip feed of we want your opinion, we're working on this. What do you think of that? And then they took a bunch of regular consumers on a trip away. Treat them like influencers. You know, it's really a statement of, we want you to be part of our journey. Like, can you come along for the ride? And that's what gymshark has always done, you know, with their Lyft events.
It's very much about like, come along for the ride with us. Come and be part of creating the most exciting brand that you're going to see this decade. Maybe beyond that.
Verity Hurd [00:21:09]:
Yeah.
Jo Bird [00:21:09]:
So I think the trends really evolve around getting people involved as much as physically possible.
Verity Hurd [00:21:17]:
I think live commerce is going to be huge and so going into next year and we're seeing Ben Gallagher from looks collective talking about selling 12,000 pound bags on lives now and stuff. I don't know why, but it blows my mind. It shouldn't because I'm in this industry, but it does really blow my mind. But when you, when you see a live and you kind of connect with someone and that sort of, I suppose it's been a presenter, isn't it?
And there's some presenters that I've seen with brands that I kind of flick through and it sounds awful. But then there's others that I really gel to and I'm like, oh, I really like what you're doing and how you're doing it. And then, yeah, you can kind of like really interact with them in real time. And I think, and particularly when the founders do it, like when Ben does it for looks collective, it's just a whole other level.
Paul Archer [00:22:05]:
Hey, it's me again. This podcast is sponsored by Duel, which is my company, actually. Duel is the leading Brand Advocacy platform used by the top retail consumer brands, including Unilever, Charlotte Tilbury, Elemis Loop, and about 50 more to manage, measure and scale their Advocacy member, affiliate, creator and brand ambassador operations. The platform offers unparalleled scale for complex brands by automating nine out of ten of the standard Advocacy management activities and allowing them to focus on arming their Advocates with the right tools to tell the brand story and drive Social Commerce, they can grow faster for less.
We only work with 15% or so of the brands we speak to, but we try and add value in many other ways, this podcast being one of them. So if you are a brand that's interested in this, maybe a large consumer retail brand, ideally you're doing $20-$30 million as a minimum, and you're pretty advanced on social and you need to know what the next stage is, then please get in touch. Email me at paul@duel.tech, that is Paul @ D, U, E, L Dot T, E, C, H or Google Duel dot Tech.
Jo Bird [00:23:12]:
It's such a good point because personal brand like Ben has built the most phenomenal personal brand, as did Ben Francis. Amy from Oddmuse, you know, Jess from REFYne. You've got Grace Vitala. There's so many examples of amazing personal brands and that's probably another shift I'm seeing now. More and more brands are realizing, and I get them come to me just because of the following I've built on LinkedIn. Will you help me build my personal brand? Because I'm launching a brand soon or I've just launched a brand and I feel like they're going to work together. And the first thing I will say is they will work together. It's 100%.
One is going to amplify the other and vice versa. I don't think they're mutually exclusive tactics anymore. I think they are more and more fusing together. So, I mean, I'm fascinated by watching Ben's lives as well because he's so chill and he sits there and I feel like I'm hanging out with him.
Verity Hurd [00:24:06]:
Exactly. Yeah.
Jo Bird [00:24:06]:
And it's kind of. It feels so much more intimate and, you know, traditionally we were just in like a broadcast world where you'd walk down the street, there'd be a billboard, there'd be this. We got shouted to. Now, I love the fact that it's more conversational and I'm involved and I feel like I'm building things with these incredibly aspirational people. And I think young people in particular are looking for that.
Verity Hurd [00:24:30]:
Yeah, definitely. I mean, God, it takes me back to when like Instagram Stories first came out. And it was like, one of the tips that I'd used to say to brands is like, walk down the street and hold your phone as if you're walking next to someone. Because that rather than kind of like being really static and holding your phone here, and I was like, just make them feel you're actually on a journey with them. And it just. Yeah, I think now taking it to like a live example is, again, like I said, it's just another level. And obviously I wanted to talk about personal branding because we have to. It's you and obviously you're very passionate about it and you've got so many amazing things to talk about.
But do you think personal brand is going to be arguably more important than like a business brand?
Jo Bird [00:25:11]:
I think they'll be pretty much equally important for their own reasons because I've seen examples of when somebody's built a personal brand, but they also needed to bounce off that business brand for whatever their objectives, for their product or whatever. It's almost like your business brand is your credibility and your legitimacy, but your personal brand is your personality. In a way, they should both have both elements, but they really work together very well. And I genuinely do feel like with the personal brand and this idea of fusing personality into business brands like this is the way that people are moving forward to cut through that noise. The one thing you've got as a USP is you. It sounds cliche, but it's true. I mean, there's a million sneaker brands, there's a million athleisure brands. You're never going to cut through the noise with your product.
I would challenge you to cut through the noise just with your product alone. The way that you paint the picture around it, I think is truly the way that you can define that and set it above everybody else's because I love follow it.
Verity Hurd [00:26:17]:
Like REFY, for example, I love following the guys from there, especially in the marketing teams where they actually go into how they've done something and they're shouting about it. And again, it's just another way to feel connected to them. What would be your top tips for either a founder led brand or marketers within a founder led brand that are wanting to just get started with their personal brand?
Jo Bird [00:26:39]:
Yeah, I think just even having the intention to get started is one because there's so many people out there I know that are like, oh, yeah, I've seen it, but I'm not convinced. I'm like, no, get convinced, please get convinced. And the other excuse they have is like, I don't really like being in front of the camera, so I'm really shy. What's your advice? And I get that. I really get it, but it depends how badly you want something. And also, the thing is, you don't have to be completely in front of the camera all the time. That's a great tactic and a way that you should move eventually. You can do it from like a tech's point of view.
I very much started just, I still do really predominantly from a text point of view. I make it really about the work in my situation. So, like, what campaign work am I promoting? Why do I like it? What's the value add from my behalf? So I'm not just resharing things, I'm actually commenting. And same way, I think it's great that can all be written if you don't like being in front of the camera.
Verity Hurd [00:27:30]:
Yeah.
Jo Bird [00:27:31]:
Selfies and photos of you. Everyone has those. Like, if you don't want to share a photo of you, then you might struggle a little bit in life, really.
Verity Hurd [00:27:38]:
We all exist on it. Hates it when I say to Paul, or like, can you do a selfie? Or like, when he's like, oh, God, and he does it, but he's like, I hate this.
Jo Bird [00:27:45]:
But you thank yourself later on because you look back at all of that content and you're like, well, I'm so glad I did document this journey. I think seeing it as a journey documentation is maybe like a less vain way to look at it. It's not about putting yourself in the limelight, so it can be all about you. It's about documenting your journey. And I think people do like to see the founder's journey because it inspires them.
That's all you're really trying to do. Like, get out your own head and think, what do people want? That's number one rule of social media. Why would people care? So if you can give them something, I love the phrase give first, get later.
Because if you can give, give, give, like, you will for sure receive that value back in time.
Verity Hurd [00:28:25]:
Yeah, definitely. Okay, I'm going to switch the narrative a little bit. I just wanted to talk around nano creators and niche communities. We briefly mentioned, like, community events and I. I suppose the first thing I wanted to actually ask is around. We've talked about a brand story, the brand personality, and when it comes to, we're all kind of starting to understand that these niche communities and the nano influencers, they hold so much power now have a lot of engagement and have a real power to kind of take a brand's narrative and tell that story for them. Are you, like, if you were to give any advice in terms of how a brand can kind of like, relinquish that control to their creators? Creators? Like, what would you say would be a good starting point?
Jo Bird [00:29:14]:
I think be really careful because I think a lot of brands say, oh, nano creators, less followers, less budget great, and they think it's a money saving activity. If that's your intention from the start, you got a problem, because what you're going to do is you're going to start activating just about anyone. You're not going to really think into it too deeply. You're going to think, oh, the more the better. And what you could quickly have is the wrong person advocating for you. Because a lot of young people on social media, they actually just love the idea of being influencers. I can't remember where I saw some data. It's just the world has changed.
A lot of young people are saying, when I grow up, I want to be an influencer. So they're very vulnerable at that state. And especially if a brand reaches out and says, hey, we'd love for you to post about our product, is it then genuine? Is it authentic?
I've had people reach out to me saying, can you promote our product? And I'll say, no, because I've never used it. Is it any good? I don't know. At least give me a free subscription so I can give it a whirl. So I think you have to be very careful about your intention. I think it's going back to that idea of, who are we as a brand? Who do we speak to? Who do we want to speak to? What's our personality? If we had a friendship group, who would belong in that friendship group? Okay, let's now go find those people and actually create a very valued community of people that we gift product to. Let's not assume that they're going to do it for free.
Let's gift and say, we just want you to try this out. Like, if you love the product, let us know and then we'd love you to talk about it publicly. We're going to pay you. Because I don't see the point in taking advantage of people. I don't think that's truly genuine. Treat them like you would your macros. I think.
Verity Hurd [00:30:54]:
Yeah. Do you think, again, flipping back to community events, do you think that's where brands should be putting the emphasis now, obviously, we mentioned Refy taking their customers. And do you think if brands are kind of going to move away from the traditional influencer strategies, do you think that's a bad thing to do? Where do the two kind of sit today?
Jo Bird [00:31:17]:
Yes, I think it is a kind of bad thing to do because the thing is, a lot of brands, they need their bottom line. Let's assume we're not talking about the Nikes of the world, because they're, I think, chilling at this point. Anyone from Nike is going to come after me. Now, I'm not chilling. Okay, sorry. But let's assume we're talking to. To smaller brands that are trying to build their brand. Your scale ups or your challenges.
You need your bottom line, otherwise you can't pay your bills and you're going to get your ROI from activating influencers, especially ones that you have evidence that they get the money back for you. That's what a lot of these brands are doing, especially the brands I've worked with. It does work. You're Molly maze of the world. You're going to spend a ton of money on her. She will make your money back. And some, so to say, like, oh, we're moving away from that strategy. I challenge you to find a brand that would readily move away from that strategy because they need to pay their bills.
But what I would say is to bolster your strategy of curing your bottom line with a long term strategy, which is authenticity over time, building the narrative, building the story, getting people on board to grow with us. What can we sprinkle on the top of that? That's going to allow that to happen at the side? The best example I've got is me building my personal brand alongside, doing a nine to five when the time comes came for me to activate my personal brand. It worked. The ROI was there, but I did it for free for over two years, expecting nothing back from it. I've more than got what I needed from that within three weeks. So I think you've got to be okay with playing the long game at the same time as the short game. So I wouldn't get rid of the other influencers, I would just combine the strategy.
Verity Hurd [00:33:01]:
Yeah, I think a lot of brands are doing that. It's just that I don't think there's something around that full funnel piece, isn't there? And how to work it and how to navigate it. But then it surprises me when brands still get upset when they're using the macros and it's almost like they're not marrying up the right metrics for the right kind of basically just getting the strategy right 100%.
Jo Bird [00:33:25]:
And the metrics are, they are important. But what I've seen a lot of in research is, oh, nano creators are amazing because their engagement is so much better. Yeah, it may be a better quality of engagement because it's not paid for and it's all sort of very genuine at that point, but their awareness isn't as strong. So it's kind of. You can put one stat off against the other and you can find pros and cons to both scenarios. Metrics are great. There's a quote, I'm full of quotes, I'm sorry, but I read a lot. Seth Godin, the marketing guru says you can run everything through a spreadsheet and you may end up with a rational plan, but a rational plan is not what creates energy and magic and memories.
And I think it's really important to make sure that marketers remember that you've got your statue, got your data, but that's not the full picture. What about all the brand emotion, the brand love that runs on the side? How do we get that? And then we can start to build a very good strategy off the back of those two things.
Verity Hurd [00:34:28]:
And then in terms of the content for these niche communities, how can brand innovate their content to really kind of connect to these communities?
Jo Bird [00:34:36]:
I think listen to creators. Oh my gosh. Creators are just a masterclass in content. That's what they do, that's what they live for. They have the Runway to test and learn because they don't have a big brand logo associated with them. So a lot of them, they are just figuring things out in their bedroom by themselves. No one to tell them what to do all the time, no client over their shoulder. They're super creative, so they are constantly discovering new ways to, you know, build connections and to make things interesting.
And I've seen it and heard it a lot where a brand will onboard a creator because they love their content and then basically give them the tightest brief you've ever seen, basically tell them what to do and the creator's like, oh, this isn't really what I'm about. Like, I don't do it this way. That's not to say that obviously a creator should dictate the brand, but, but you work together for a reason. It's a collaboration. But just if a brand wants Inspo, just go and look at what creators are churning out because you will see that they are being so fun, so original, so playful, experimental and creative. And at the end of the day, I think brands have kind of lost their creativity.
Verity Hurd [00:35:44]:
Will we see more brands bringing creators in as like creative directors, do you think?
Jo Bird [00:35:49]:
Oh, as creative directors, I've seen it happening. I think a lot of creators will launch brands. That's what I'm more excited about and that's what I'm seeing. I think brands, yeah, they will try and enroll creators in, but creators will very quickly realize that when you're in a brand that pre exists it's not theirs. And so they're having to then fit into a box again. You're a creator for a reason. You create things. I've just seen KSI and Logan, Paul and MrBeast have launched a new product.
I mean, you've got the platform to do it, so I think that's where the excitement is. What creators will launch themselves.
Verity Hurd [00:36:29]:
Yeah. Watch this space.
Jo Bird [00:36:31]:
Definitely. I might be next. Who knows? Please be. Please.
Verity Hurd [00:36:35]:
What would you do?
Jo Bird [00:36:36]:
I know. Such a great question. I can't tell you. We'll have to save it for another top secret meeting. But that's the beauty of it. Like, world your oyster when you've got an audience.
Verity Hurd [00:36:45]:
Yeah. And with all the things we've talked about, who do you think is killing it right now from a brand point of view? Well, it could be brand or creator.
Jo Bird [00:36:54]:
I think your brands, like your liquid death and your surreal and your gymsharks are all killing it because they've really stayed true to who they are at the core and they're just having some fun. Yeah, but I do honestly think creators are people that we should watch. You've already referenced cucumber boy. I mean, we've had, you know, the tube girl had a moment.
Verity Hurd [00:37:16]:
Where does she go?
Jo Bird [00:37:17]:
I don't know, actually. Maybe she's plotting her next move. But that's quite a good point, though, because once you have your moment as a creator, then how do you sustain that? And that boils back to that strategy of, okay, so we've had a moment. We've gone with the wave, but we now need to sustain that growth and figure out ways to keep people reengaged. So maybe creators aren't completely educated in that. And so having some brand knowledge really does help. It's that loyalty piece. How do you keep people coming back for more? You got to keep exciting people.
Verity Hurd [00:37:48]:
Yeah, I mean, just on a loyalty thing, I'm so sick of, like, join our loyalty scheme, and it's like, here's 10% off on your first purchase or whatever it is, and it's just like, okay, this is very boring. Like, really, is this loyalty? Is this really how you deem loyalty? And I just. I can't get my head around it. It.
Jo Bird [00:38:05]:
There's got to be so much more. You really have to go above and beyond now. People kind of expect it, especially Gen Z, and then we'll be moving into Gen Alpha. These are different demographics that expect a lot more nurturing. So that will be a real challenge for brands. How do we nurture in a cost effective and efficient way so we can keep everyone happy. But I think full circle. It comes back to our original point about just being genuine and actually caring about people.
Jo Bird [00:38:35]:
I don't think it's hard to be a nice human and then, let's be honest, there's humans behind these brands. So just be nice and caring and then naturally people will follow.
Verity Hurd [00:38:44]:
Yeah. And I think, do you know what? When you put it so simply, like, it's just a two way dialogue and that's how you show that you care about someone, because you just ask them questions and you kind of want to know how they're feeling. Or loop. Earplugs do a really good job at that, particularly from a loyalty piece because they're constantly asking questions. They're constantly. And it might be around the products, but it's, how does our products fit into your day to day life? How do they make you feel? And it's things like that. And now they've got, from a brand perspective, they've now got thousands of pieces of data from the right people, so then they can go and innovate their products in the right way because they've heard it directly from their community and their customers and it is just, you know, have a dialogue with them 100%.
Jo Bird [00:39:31]:
Some brands think they don't want to be told what they should be doing, but talk a lot about the IkEA effect, this psychology thing, which is basically, if you help build it, you will love it. Why would a consumer advocate for something that they actually don't feel part of? Like, if I feel involved and included and listened to, I'm for sure going to support it a lot more than if you didn't care about my opinion, you know, because I feel invested. Like it's. It's that idea of being involved in something and caring about it so much more. So, yeah, that dialogue is so important.
Verity Hurd [00:40:04]:
Yeah. I have to ask, what do brands get wrong when it comes to advocacy?
Jo Bird [00:40:11]:
I think a lot of brands think that advocacy is advocating for your brand and not with your brand. Just playing into the conversation we're having. It's not enough to just expect people to root for you. And I know you sell a product and you provide a service and whatever, but there's so much more to it than that.
If I buy a product, I'm wearing your logo or carrying your shopping bag. That's a statement on my behalf. So why would I make that statement? What are all the extra things that that message basically shares with the world about me as a person? Patagonia applauding Patagonia because of how bold they have been with their message. To say, like, do not buy this sweatshirt or whatever it was because of these reasons and to actually care about something.
It's for brands that have a point of view and then share that point of view and allow people to join you in that movement. And I think just context is very important, context of the world and things that are happening in the world. I don't think brands can be ignorant to that completely. It's not to say have a political point of view all the time, but it is to say, like, what is it about the world that you want to try and improve and have a say in? Because the younger the audience is get, the more they will be looking at you for that our planet's been destroyed. How are you helping? Or are you doing what some brands do and just continue to rinse it? We don't want to be associated with that.
So there's a difference between just making money transactionally because there'll always be people prepared to buy regardless of the circumstance, but then the people that actually advocate for you, some people will buy from brands that they will never admit they buy from.
Verity Hurd [00:41:55]:
Yeah, yeah, I know some of those people.
Jo Bird [00:41:58]:
Yeah, and some of those brands have incredibly high followings across social media as well. Yeah, but does that mean I'd advocate for the brand? No. And that's a different conversation. And advocacy is your, and or your long term plan. You don't have that. You might not survive the next 10, 20 years.
Verity Hurd [00:42:15]:
Yeah, I mean, we were just talking about that before we sort of came on air in terms of, like, all of this is a long term piece, isn't it? It's the long term strategy. And, you know, we said it's not gonna happen overnight. And I think that's, for me, probably why brands get it so wrong, because they're just constantly, like, just chasing for the next pound. And actually, everything that we've talked about today, if you just invest in that time and you just kind of, you know, really passionately believe in it, you will reap the benefits at the end of it. And all the brands that we've mentioned today are prime examples. And Patagonia, they are the legends when it comes to all of this.
Jo Bird [00:42:52]:
Totally. So, yeah, I think I write it on, I wrote it on one of my LinkedIn posts, like, do you want to be a cheap gossip column or do you want to be headline in New York Times? Which brand do you want to be? Because you can be the cheap gossip column if you want to. You'll get eyeballs and you'll get people pay attention to you. But is that how you want to be known? Or do you want to be that headline act that is very credible and, you know, everybody thinks he's extremely prestigious and you've left your mark on the world. I'm not here to tell you which one to be. You choose, but just be aware that you get what you give. So reap what you sow. Make your bed, your lie in it.
That's all I'm saying. Make your choice.
Verity Hurd [00:43:33]:
Jo. Building a personal brand alongside a nine to five job like it is incredible. And hats off to you. You know, I tried to do it myself and I really struggle. Can you just give us some basic tips of how you've done that and how you're now at like over 60,000 followers on LinkedIn?
Jo Bird [00:43:49]:
Yeah, totally. Honestly, the first thing is to just figure out who you want to help and who you want to inspire and who you want to talk to. Just completely get out your own head of like, oh, woe is me. I don't want to put a picture up. I don't want to do this. Everybody's going to look at me, everyone's going to think I'm a weirdo. Just try and move past that and think, what could I share that's going to be interesting for other people? So when I started sharing my personal work and then I started sharing other people's work, that sort of felt like very natural and it wasn't feeling forced in any way. Also just consistency.
So if you are busy with doing other things, which most people are, try and batch create and batch schedule your content. Because it just means that you can invest a couple of hours on a weekend into what you want to say, get it all lined up, up, and then you can just get on with your week and then engage with people throughout the week. But you don't really have to sweat over it every single day. And then, most importantly, is to just continue. And I know that sounds like, oh, thanks for the cliche advice, but most people can't do that. They give it a try for a couple of weeks and they go, oh, it's not working, sorry, you have to move past it. Just don't expect anything in the first few weeks, maybe a couple of months. Have no expectations for it.
It. But you will be surprised. I mean, some of the things I've got from it have just been absolutely amazing. So just keep going. That's my best advice I could give you.
Verity Hurd [00:45:08]:
Love that. And I think your content is great because it really especially where you break down brands and you kind of like highlight campaigns because not only is it useful to the audience, but it really highlights your expertise as well. So amazing work.
Jo Bird [00:45:22]:
Thank you Jo.
Verity Hurd [00:45:23]:
This has been amazing. Where can people find you?
Jo Bird [00:45:26]:
I'm just Jo Bird across various social media platforms. So yeah, just come hang out and I just post my journey as well. So if you just want to come and see me trying to build a creative career then yeah, I'm sure we can share some nice back and forths on the chaos that ensues. So yeah, be lovely to connect with everyone.
Verity Hurd [00:45:44]:
Thank you so much.
Jo Bird [00:45:45]:
Thanks for having me.
Paul Archer [00:45:48]:
That was another episode of Building Brand Advocacy, the world's top brand building podcast. To find out more about Building Brand Advocacy and how this podcast is part of a bigger plan for our brand building cookbook, then make sure to search for Building Brand Advocacy in Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or anywhere else that podcasts are fine. And make sure that you click subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. Thanks to dual for sponsoring. To find out more, go to www.dual.tech. That's D U A L dot T E C H and on behalf of the team here at Building Brand Advocacy, thanks for listening.
.png?width=333&name=Spotify%20Circle%20Logo%20(final).png)
.png?width=333&name=YouTube%20Circle%20Logo%20(1).png)
%20(1)%20(1).png?width=333&name=YouTube%20Circle%20Logo%20(1)%20(1)%20(1).png)
