2025 is coming in hot. 

Is your brand ready to thrive in the era of co-creation?

This week on the podcast, Verity welcomes back the incomparable Lia Haberman – leading authority on the creator economy, social media savant, and the ultimate forecaster on what’s next. If you’re in fashion, beauty, or any space where community & content matters (spoiler: that’s everywhere), this episode is your tactical guide to the year ahead.

From Lia, you’ll learn about:

• The Power of Co-Creation: Customers aren’t just buying – they’re building with you. Lia spills how brands like E.L.F. Cosmetics and Netflix turned audience feedback into blockbuster products and campaigns. The takeaway? Your next big idea might be hiding in the Comments section.
  
  
• Influencers, Reimagined: Forget the airbrushed perfection of yesterday. 2025’s creators are experts, superfans, and relatable voices. Lia unpacks how beauty brands are leading the charge in harnessing this shift to connect, convert, and dominate; and what you can learn from them. 
  
  
• Content That Actually Connects: Swipe-left storytelling. Long-form's comeback. Collage culture. The next big content moves are here. Lia breaks down why they matter for brands looking to capture, and keep, attention.

 

• AI That Elevates (Not Overpowers): From smarter searches to hyper-personalized connections, AI is no longer the shiny new toy – it’s your quiet powerhouse. Lia explains how to use it right (without losing the human touch).

This isn’t another trends rundown. It’s a masterclass in evolving with your audience, building real Advocacy, and making 2025 your best year yet.

Press play and take note.

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Lia Haberman [00:00:00]:

Content has come to be almost like a proxy for brand. Somebody said that content is the original cold email. So thinking about that is what is reaching people. If you're just using the same memes, the same jokes, not narrowing down, not finding your unique content style, not speaking to your community, taking the feedback and integrating that into what you're doing, the huge, faceless global corporation is going to have a really hard time.

Paul Archer [00:00:39]:

Have you ever wondered why some brands grow exponentially, building legions of passionate fans that live and die by their logos and some, well, don't. I do all the time, and that's probably because I'm a massive brand nerd. But I believe there's a secret sauce at the core of every remarkable brand. A formula that sparks the growth of passionate communities, of superfans, building a business and a reputation that will last for years to come. In this podcast, we tap into the greatest marketing minds in the world as they share the exact tactics and strategies used to build the world's greatest brands. Dropping actionable insights every brand builder can apply. My name is Paul Archer and I'm a specialist in brand advocacy and word of mouth, having consulted for hundreds of brands on a topic. Co hosting with me is the wonderful Verity Hurd, expert on the bleeding edge of social media.

Paul Archer [00:01:32]:

It's time to learn and Build Brand Advocacy.

Verity Hurd [00:01:36]:

Hello and welcome to Building Brand Advocacy. I am thrilled to welcome back our special guest, Lia Haberman, who, if you don't know Lia, she is a creator economy expert and knows everything you need to know about the social and influencer industry. Hello, Lia.

Lia Haberman [00:01:55]:

Hey, how's it going?

Verity Hurd [00:01:57]:

Really good, thank you. I am so excited to have you back because we last spoke back in. Well, we spoke back at the live Building Brand Advocacy podcast Social Commerce Summit in May in New York, and we had about 25 minutes to chat and frankly, it just didn't seem like long enough at all. So I'm really excited to have a little bit longer with you today so we can get into everything that happened since we last spoke and also what's happening? Well, your top predictions for 2025, because, yeah, it's been. There's been a lot has happened in five months.

Lia Haberman [00:02:27]:

It has. A lot happens in the last hour. I mean, you know, you step away for a second and Instagram's released something new, so.

Verity Hurd [00:02:35]:

Yes, yes, absolutely. So let's go. Let's go straight in. So we're closing out 2024. This year has gone so fast. I wanted to ask you, what do you think are the standout shifts in social media? And which ones will have the most lasting impact as we go into 2025?

Lia Haberman [00:02:53]:

Yeah, I think we're kind of at an interesting transition era and I think some brands are going to get it and thrive and some brands aren't. So I would call us in the era of co creation where everyone, not just influencers, not just internally or your employees or your leadership, but also your customers have a hand in the brand reputation. But it's not just about, I think a lot of times people see like UGC or cgc, you know, community or customer generated content and they think like, okay, it's just about pushing a message outwards. I think the thing that people have come to expect is that it's a two way street and so they want a more collaborative experience I think with brand social. So like yes, you are going to, if you're a brand or a social manager, you're going to reply in the comments, you know, you're going to feature UGC or cgc, whatever we're calling it now. But I don't think it stops there. I think that's kind of the essence or the principles of being a social first brand is taking that feedback and incorporating it not just into social strategy, not just into maybe aesthetics or an idea for a campaign, but really across the organisation and using that information to improve products and services. So I would say to everyone, I think that really started in the past couple of years but I expect in 2025, I think anybody that thinks we're putting the message out there, this is our brand, this is what we want to do, this is what we're saying and expecting just kind of an appreciative, passive audience is going to be, you know, I think in for a rude awakening when realising how much of an interactive experience people experience when they're online.

Verity Hurd [00:04:39]:

Most of the conversations we're having at the moment is about this two way dialogue and I suppose like that is, that is the key. And when we've been speaking to some of the brands, they've been saying that is where they get their most innovative ideas, innovative feedback so that they can then, you know, take that back. And then they're really kind of like in so many different ways it's not just down to the product, it's, you know, everything that they're doing when they're having that two way dialogue. And I, yeah, completely agree and I love that element of like just definitely more interact. You know, I've, I said that this year like the age of the passive consumerism is over. Like I Suppose how interactive are we going to be getting in 2025? Like, how vocal are these people are going to be?

Lia Haberman [00:05:26]:

I think very. I think brands have tiptoed into it this year. Like, I would say beauty brands have probably done the best job at looking at the feedback. I'm thinking of who was it? Elf Cosmetics. The CEO was doing a live stream. People were requesting, like, can you build a dupe of this product that. Or not build, create, I guess, you know, dupe of this product or that product, which led to their, I think their bronzing drops. We saw there was a Korean skincare brand, tier tier, and they saw a creator or an influencer talking about, you know, how few foundations shades they had.

Lia Haberman [00:06:04]:

And so they developed more shades, sent them to her to have her announce it first. So I think. I'm not. I'm not quite sure why beauty is so nimble and able to pivot so quickly and kind of realise the benefit of customers listening to them. But one other really funny example, and so that's affecting, like products and services. Another funny example that I point to is that Netflix, they had something this year called Under Paris, which was like a Sharknado kind of movie, and they put out like the key art for the movie, like the movie poster, and they got a tonne of responses with people telling, like making jokes on the name, I can't remember. It was like Chartres, Triomphe and a whole bunch of other like really funny suggestions. So they re released the movie's key art to incorporate all of these titles that people had suggested.

Lia Haberman [00:06:54]:

So, like, what you said, I think it's like not just about the product. It's like, maybe you're changing the graphics, maybe you're changing the campaign slightly, maybe it's informing bringing back an old favourite product or something. Like, I think it really is going to touch every aspect across the organisation and I think it. But it's hard. Like, listen, we're sitting here and it's very easy to say, like, you need to take that feedback, you need to act on that, like, analyse and act on that feedback. I get it. Like, it is very hard. You have, you know, internally people have their thoughts and processes and biases, but I do think that the companies that are able to take that information, use that information strategically, are the ones that are gonna do best.

Lia Haberman [00:07:37]:

And I was, I don't know if you guys have this in the uk, but I was at a conference last week and somebody made a joke about there was a show called Blue's Clues and when you were a kid here, it was. You had to like shout things back at the television. Like Blue would ask questions, you had to like yell back at the tv. And so this person was making a joke of like this is how Gen Z grew up shouting back at the television. And like that is true. But I mean there's also so many other instances, just the like UGC or cgc. And the priority that we've put on that in expecting people to create content for brands like that has opened the door to yeah, we want your feedback, we want your content. People have that expectation now that like if I say something, if I provide feedback, if I provide content, like a brand is going to take me seriously.

Lia Haberman [00:08:24]:

And even on the platform side you look at like Duets. Yeah, anything where you can like remix content. Like we have opened that door and invited people to do that. And I think it's like you've got to embrace that. Then you can't kind of like partially open the door and say we want your content, we want your testimonials. But like that's as far as it goes. Like no, we have to embrace fully that like this is now kind of a partnership that we have with our community.

Verity Hurd [00:08:49]:

Yeah. And I agree, like it is that, that co creation piece as well, like that is a huge, huge like topic that we're talking about in the UK Also. You just really gave me a big flashback to my first, my first child. Loved Blue's Clues.

Lia Haberman [00:09:04]:

Okay, cool.

Verity Hurd [00:09:05]:

I'm glad that you would.

Lia Haberman [00:09:06]:

I wasn't sure.

Verity Hurd [00:09:07]:

So yeah, that just gave me a lovely little flashback moment. And which, which of those trends, Lia, do you think will continue to defy the direct of creator driven commerce in 2025?

Lia Haberman [00:09:19]:

Yeah, I mean look, I think people are always very quick to say like creators are dead or influencer marketing is dead. I don't think it is. We're looking at the numbers. Especially if you look at the numbers like around Gen Z and how much influence creators or influencers have on their purchasing habits. So I think that is going to continue to be really strong. I think what might shift is kind of who we consider an influencer. Right. So it's like we've got to evolve and like maybe an influencer in 2025 is not going to look the same as like an influencer in 2018, 2019, 2020.

Lia Haberman [00:09:54]:

Like it could be a different category of people. I think we're going in the direction of like more relatable kind of down to earth influencers or expert influencers. So like any study that you look at where, like, who do people trust? It's either people like me, so they're looking around at like more relatable people, or it's experts, scientists, lawyers, you know, finance experts, people like that. So yeah, we might shift slightly maybe from just a pure lifestyle influencer, but maybe it's a makeup artist, maybe it's a fashion stylist, maybe it's somebody that works in a boutique. So I think there's always going to be somebody that people are looking to for kind of that creation through curation. In like, what do I buy? There's like a million products. How do I choose the best shoes, pants, jacket, you know, sandwich for lunch, whatever it is. We're always going to be looking for somebody that's kind of gone through and curated.

Lia Haberman [00:10:51]:

Here's the best of. I think who that is might shift, but I don't think that we're seeing the end of creator influencer, led commerce.

Verity Hurd [00:11:01]:

Yeah, that's really interesting. I think if anything is just going to widen that network for brands, which is, you know, we've talked about it before, you know, in on building brand advocacy. It's just opening up that goldmine for brands. And I think it will, I think for brands like they, they will just see a huge more opportunities and you know, see these pools of like, these different networks of people that they probably never considered before. And it's, it's going to be really interesting and also really insightful to see how that help that plays out. And yeah, like, you know, we just spoke before we came on and you know, I saw a post on LinkedIn today and it said the influencer is dead. Paid ads are too expensive. It's all about the customer generated content and stuff.

Verity Hurd [00:11:47]:

And yes, I agree and Paul will kill me for like even approaching on this conversation, but the influencer isn't necessarily dead in my opinion. I think, you know, when speaking to a lot of brands, even just through the podcast, you know, that there's still a place. And but I think more importantly, it goes back to what you were just saying now. I think it will just shift a little bit in terms of what the influencer looks like. We've all got influence, you know.

Lia Haberman [00:12:14]:

Absolutely.

Verity Hurd [00:12:15]:

Yeah, yeah.

Lia Haberman [00:12:16]:

And I think it's what you said, like it's evolving and it's, you know, a different, it could be a super fan, consumer customer, it could be an employee, it could be, you know, an expert, it could be a traditional creator. I think it's just we, we have to be open to the fact that like yeah, it's, it's a widening pool and not just like, isn't that the beauty of social media and the whole influencer marketing industry, that it was like, supposed to democratise stuff and make things, you know, not be funnelled or kind of like be gatekeeped? Like this is how it's supposed to go, that it's supposed to be like different people are going to influence you and some of them might be your neighbour and some of them might be an online creator. But I think that's good essentially for, for brands and just for all of us.

Verity Hurd [00:13:02]:

Yeah, one, and I really agree with that. And like I said, I think it's going to be really interesting to see how brands play around with it and how they kind of like choose to work with these different groups of people. I want to move on to content. So in 2024, we've had photo carousels, obviously shareable content. Short form video has kind of dominated this space. What content formats do you like, see gaining traction next year? And especially the kind of content that's really going to capture and keep the users attention. Because I'm hearing like, long form is making a comeback, even like podcasts isn't, you know, they're not going anywhere. But that feels like such a big shift in attention spans because we, you know, three seconds seem to be like too long.

Verity Hurd [00:13:50]:

Not that long ago.

Lia Haberman [00:13:51]:

Right, I know. And the funny thing is people describing long form like anything over three minutes is like all of a sudden now. Long form, I love. Some people are calling it mid form. I think that's like between 3 to 10 minutes is like mid form and then over 10 minutes is long form, which I love, because I think that does kind of pay respect to the fact that like really like four minutes is a long form video. I mean, I guess it is with our attention spans now, listen, I don't think audiences are done with short form necessarily. I think a lot of this push for a return to longer form is coming more from the brand and creator side. I think people have seen that short form, very hard to build loyalty, develop ip, stand out in, you know, when people are kind of constantly scrolling, whether it's reels or TikToks or shorts.

Lia Haberman [00:14:42]:

I think a lot of creators and brands and social managers and marketers are seeing that, like, it's very hard to form those deeper relationships through short form video. Great for capturing attention, not so great for maybe keeping attention or converting that attention into something else. So I think it's going to be a kind of a charge led by probably more creators and brands in looking at, okay, what is something that we can develop these deeper relationships. And I love that you said podcasts, because I was just thinking about it last night. You look at John Yushai, who's a YouTuber and he does these great interviews and he just talked to Casey Neistat, who's another kind of OG YouTuber, and it was a two hour conversation. I was watching it last night and I gotta admit, I did play it on 2x speed because I was like, it's two hours. I don't have two hours to hear. But like, I did want to hear this interview.

Lia Haberman [00:15:33]:

And so, you know, and then there was like Joe Rogan and he talked to Trump for three hours, which again, like, I can't fathom listening to three hours. But maybe if you're playing it on, you know, faster speed. But I do think that it kind of points to the, on the creator side, certainly they don't want to limit themselves. They want to go deep. Right. And so I think that's very interesting. I think the fact that there is an audience, whether they're like me and you're watching it on like 1.5x or 2x or whatever, I think it's going to be whatever is not short form. So that might be photos, it might be carousels.

Lia Haberman [00:16:09]:

We know that Instagram just increased their carousels up to like 20, you know, photos or videos. So kind of like a more. And I'm calling that swipe left storytelling, not a photo dump. I would stop thinking of the carousel as a photo dump and really think about it as a storytelling opportunity. Just, it's kind of almost like photojournalism in terms of, you know, what the story you're able to tell when people are going through a carousel podcast mid form, long form. One other thing too, and you know, I'm not the only one championing this, but I do feel like I keep talking about it and I want other people to take it and run with it. Pinterest brought out collages. They did it.

Lia Haberman [00:16:51]:

They actually did it in 2022. They had an app called Shuffles, which was kind of like a spin off app. They brought out Shuffles and Shuffles still exists, but they've reincorporated parts of Shovels back into Pinterest with these collages. They've done partnerships with Nike that saw really great performance through this collage campaign. They just released something with Maybelline, which was again, I think they were doing. Oh, what was it called? Collage Remixes that was it. So Maybelline did like a campaign which was like a collage remix. And I think that this is really interesting.

Lia Haberman [00:17:24]:

I think it speaks to. It's very different from, I don't know, like five years. I can't remember whenever Marie Kondo was kind of that era of like minimalism and paring things down. And this is like an abundance of things that you love, all kind of crammed and curated together. And the, one of the reasons, and you know that I keep going on and on about it is like, not only is Pinterest, Pinterest is growing with Gen Z, Gen Z is the highest user of collages. They create more collages than anybody else. Instagram recently we saw, I think it was a beta test that nobody was supposed to see, but this notification popped up of like, they are building a collage tool because we know when Instagram sees something that somebody else is doing and it's working successfully, they were going to be very quick to jump on that. So Instagram's testing it.

Lia Haberman [00:18:12]:

Amazon just came out with collages for their creators. So the creator storefronts in the Amazon, you know, influencer programme. And so they actually just rolled out a tool as well. So I think again, we're not done with short form necessarily, but I do think people are going to be looking for opportunities to do these other things and kind of create, I don't know, more meaningful, kind of like in depth type content that really resonates with people.

Verity Hurd [00:18:37]:

I love the. Not a photo dump. What was it?

Lia Haberman [00:18:41]:

Swipe, swipe left. Storytelling.

Verity Hurd [00:18:43]:

Yeah, I love that. I love that. I'm going to take that and run with that. And also, yeah, I was on a call with Pinterest actually a few months ago and collages was the huge, huge topic of conversation on that call. So speaking of platforms, I mean, in our last chat you suggested that brands hire for platform specific roles across, you know, TikTok, Instagram, Pinterest, YouTube. I suppose first of all, what I know, you know, we haven't got all day, so just kind of top line with these platforms, like, what should we expect? And yeah, I mean, what do you see these platforms taking any expected unexpected turns in 2025?

Lia Haberman [00:19:25]:

I mean, the big elephant in the room, of course is TikTok and what happens to that after? I think the deadline is to divest, you know, by dance, to divest itself as TikTok is January 19th, certainly, I think the, you know, the US election and depending on who's, you know, who kind of who's in charge in January and next year could determine that. I think, I think that's the biggest variable that we cannot predict. Right. I think Instagram has. They've gone all in on short form video because they feel like short form video is more shareable and their whole thing is sharing. They've seen people go to DMs and stories. I think for the foreseeable future, I think Instagram is going to be very much around creating both content that gets shared and then enhancing those spaces. DM stories where short form content or photos or memes or whatever it is gets shared.

Lia Haberman [00:20:21]:

YouTube, I mean YouTube is just, it's like a juggernaut. Like YouTube is crushing it. They're Gen Z's number one platform. They're the number one platform for finding, for looking at creator content. They're the number one streamer in the US. So I think, I think YouTube's interesting. I think YouTube is going to veer much more towards streaming TV network type versus kind of more, you know, I don't think they're going to stop their shorts or reel back shorts, but I do think that they're going to like really heavily focus on living room watching series, you know, season. Like they just announced that creators would be able to organise their content by seasons and episodes, which I love and I also think is a lot more manageable for brand managers, creators.

Lia Haberman [00:21:10]:

So I love that whole development.

Paul Archer [00:21:14]:

Hey, it's me again. This podcast is sponsored by Dual, which is my company. Actually. Duel is the leading brand advocacy platform used by the top retail consumer brands including Unilever, Charlotte, Tilbury, Elemis, loop and about 50 more to manage, measure and scale their advocacy member, affiliate, creator and brand ambassador operations. The platform offers unparalleled scale for complex brands by automating 9 out of 10 of the standard advocacy management activities and allowing them to focus on arming their advocates. With the right tools to tell the brand story and drive social commerce, they can grow faster for less. We only work with 15% or so of the brands we speak to, but we try and add value in many other ways, this podcast being one of them. So if you are a brand that's interested in this, maybe a large consumer retail brand, Ideally you're doing 20, 30 million dollars as a minimum and you're pretty advanced on social and you need to know what the next stage is, then please get in touch.

Paul Archer [00:22:08]:

Email me. Paul Tech that is P A U L at D U E L dot Tech or Google Dual Doc Tech.

Verity Hurd [00:22:20]:

Yeah, that sounds really exciting. And again, that Opens up a huge, huge amount of opportunities to be really creative with. With that. Something just came to mind. LinkedIn. You know, we never talk about LinkedIn especially obviously, you know, we work in like the D2D brand space. But I mean, you shared a newsletter the other day, I think, and it was like, are we all on LinkedIn now? Or something around that. And actually I am seeing a lot more brands using that platform.

Verity Hurd [00:22:48]:

Is there any sort of insights on LinkedIn and particularly sort of like brands and how they might be using it next year?

Lia Haberman [00:22:55]:

I think the interesting thing is, yeah, LinkedIn, we are all on LinkedIn and I think everybody's kind of a LinkedIn fan now. It's. It. There's something LinkedIn hasn't changed a lot since it's been around for like 20 years and certainly they've evolved and they've just come out with short form video. But I feel like, you know, there's less algorithmic interference than maybe on the other social platforms. And so people feel like maybe it's kind of a return to like just the purest form of a social platform. You put stuff out and the people that follow you see it. I think it's really interesting.

Lia Haberman [00:23:26]:

Gen Z's coming of working age, right? Gen Z is like now. I think it's like 12 to 27 is kind of roughly the bucket that they fall into. So you got a tonne of people joining the workforce, so they're getting on LinkedIn. I think they're making an impact in terms of the social media managers running brand pages and everything's getting a lot funnier, more conversational, more casual. What I also think is a really interesting space because you did mention like B2B and B2C. Like it kind of depends what kind of brand you are. But I think any brand has a place on LinkedIn. I think that's great.

Lia Haberman [00:24:00]:

I think any brand's executive leadership and employees have a place on LinkedIn through an employee advocacy programme. But I would also think of, not only is I think B2B going to get more personable because essentially, even if it's, you know, you're marketing your service to another business, there is a decision maker on the other end of that screen that's watching, where I also think there's a tonne of really interesting opportunity is spaces that overlap with business. So work wardrobe, you know, like bags, briefcases, things that you. Especially if there's a return to office or even if there's not a return to office, you know, just the things, the accessories and all the overlapping products and services that come with being a professional and I think it was corporate. Natalie just did something recently where she did, it was a collaboration or you know, partnership with and I'm forgetting the clothing brand, but she did something with a clothing brand and it was on LinkedIn. She talked about how like, yeah, most of the time she's talking about work and office and you know, workplace culture and humour, but like she wears a certain type of outfit to work and this whatever her, the, you know, the campaign was part of was like helped her get dressed for work and kind of the type of content that she makes. And I thought that was so clever and such a good way to use LinkedIn in a way that's like a little bit different and more unexpected and I think could catch people's attention because we're so used to white papers and kind of, you know, corporate messaging and that sort of stuff on LinkedIn that I think to me that really stood out.

Verity Hurd [00:25:33]:

Yeah, I think people are getting, adding a bit more personality on that platform now. That's definitely what I'm seeing and I think humour is definitely coming out there. Not that it wasn't there before, but I think people are feeling a bit more that they can be a bit more creative with that platform. And like you said, it doesn't have to be this so like suited and booted. Suited and booted platform.

Lia Haberman [00:25:56]:

I'm actually working on a newsletter that like B2B doesn't need to be boring because that comes up so much. So yes, totally in line with you there.

Verity Hurd [00:26:04]:

And I suppose something that we're talking about here in the UK is, and we've talked about it since this time last year is like sort of like not dark social but more and more of like the creator community spaces. Like more and more interaction is happening in those private spaces. Do you see communities moving to lesser known platforms or do you see them kind of like moving into like the dark spaces or the, the private channels a little bit more into next year? Because I just think about how I interact on social media and I don't really like that much on TikTok or Instagram. I kind of, if I do then I will share it. Like I've got my collections on Instagram are shared with so many different friends. Like I've got recipes with someone and crafts with another and netball tips with the netball girls and like I don't actually physically like respond to posts that much anymore.

Lia Haberman [00:26:57]:

Yes, I think lesser known platforms, I think we're seeing the landscape get very fractured and while there's still, you know, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok are kind of like these juggernauts, people are going into smaller, more private spaces. I think brands are realising that the old kind of like what is it? Spray and pray method is like no longer working. So I think people are going to go after more and I say this in a, in a good way, obsessive, excessive niche communities. So they're going to look at Pinterest, they're going to look at LinkedIn, they're going to look at Reddit, they're going to look at Roblox. I think Roblox is really interesting. I can't say who but I was talking to a brand manager at a international company that I think everybody would be surprised was getting on Roblox. Like they're not the most natural thing when you think of like gaming or kind of getting on Roblox. And so I think brands are realising that there's like these little pools around the Internet of like very hyper focused communities and I think they're going to start to look at, yes, we're still going to do like meta advertising for example or you know, Google Ads, whatever it is but we're going to start to investigate and kind of dip our toe into like these little hyper niche communities that are very passionate around specific topics topics or that the like demographics or psychographics teachers for example, you know, this is the platform that they tend to congregate on and have conversations on.

Lia Haberman [00:28:24]:

So I think that's going to be really interesting to watch. Watch.

Verity Hurd [00:28:26]:

Yeah, that the, the whole gaming particularly in fashion actually really, really interests me and I'm really, I, I don't know if I'm a little bit scared even though to, to know where that could go. But yeah.

Lia Haberman [00:28:39]:

Have you played Dress to Impress yet? No. Okay. I'm like, I'm embarrassed to say I like, I want to play it. I, I'm not on Roblox so I actually asked my son this weekend. I was like can you set this up with for me so I can start playing this? Because apparently it is like one of their fastest growing games and is very, very popular with Gen Alpha and Gen Z and so I'm so curious. I want to see and like you said it's like a fashion, a fashion forward game and so I think that's really interesting. That also brings in maybe people who weren't traditionally interested in more you know, like first player shooting type of games. So yeah, super interesting.

Verity Hurd [00:29:19]:

Okay, when I want to go back to the creator piece. And we know that, like, creators are becoming really integral to brand identity. Now, obviously, we've touched on how important just in this conversation, but how do you think brands should be working with creators? And more importantly, how should they work with them to sort of like, empower them as architects for their advocacy efforts?

Lia Haberman [00:29:42]:

That's such a good question, because I. So I wrote a LinkedIn post a couple of weeks ago talking about, oh, you know, it was really like a throwaway post of, like, here's seven different ways or something that you could work with creators. And I got so much feedback and engagement on that that I decided to write a new newsletter and kind of expanded it, talked to a couple of different marketers about their experiences, and really, it comes down to creators. Influencers are like a full funnel solution. These are. We really need to get past the idea of influencers as just either talent to star in a video or amplifiers to be able to share that message with audiences. You really have to start looking at them as like a business partner. That could be like a, you know, a full funnel strategic approach, starting with, you know, bringing them into the office, working with them like lunch and learn with a creator, bringing them into, like, R and D or qa, whatever it is, you know, your product or service that you're releasing and asking for their help.

Lia Haberman [00:30:44]:

From a comms perspective, I think one of the things that people overlook so often is that creators and influencers know how to communicate information in a way that people want to receive it. Sometimes as marketers, we get in our own way where it's, you know, too corporate or too formal or too promotional. Whereas ask an influencer or a creator to help you come up with your messaging. You might use them then for a campaign. There's nothing wrong with then doing that, using them as, like, talent and amplifiers. But think of them in so many more capacities and working with them in kind of so many more ways. There was somebody that I interviewed for the newsletter, Lindsay Calabrese, who said, partner with creators in front of the lens, behind the lens and behind the scenes place creators at the heart of everything you do and how you do it. And I think that really sums up kind of my beliefs and what I've seen work and where I think we're headed.

Verity Hurd [00:31:38]:

Yeah, I love that. Have you seen any, like, who's killing it in terms of, like, integrating that whole piece that you've just said there? Anybody that's standing out right now?

Lia Haberman [00:31:51]:

There's a lot of companies. Again, you know, we talked about, like, beauty companies. I Think fashion and beauty are really great at doing this. I remember, I think it was too faced that brought in an influencer as kind of like a creative director. And I think it's, you know, when they bring them in as creative directors I think it's in a much more substantial way than like we've seen some brands bring in celebrities, for example, as creative directors where it's really just a title. This is bringing them in, this is getting them in, involved. Gap just did something with a TikToker, the hoodie that hoodies, which I love and it was kind of this co branded product. So there was this girl on TikTok that does reviews of hoodies and so you know, instead of just hiring her to promote their hoodie for example, they brought her in, they had her design a hoodie with them and then also used her then in the campaign to release this hoodie around this like co branded product.

Lia Haberman [00:32:48]:

And I love that story. I thought that was just such a clever use of you know, working with the creator beyond kind of the stereotypical. And then we've seen, we've seen a bunch of, you know, last year we actually saw a bunch of different companies and organisations use creators as kind of creators in residence. And so it's this idea of like a much more involved, long standing relationship. It's kind of more, it's more integrated, it's more meaningful than just here's our product, you know, please promote it, here's your cheque, thank you very much. And we've seen especially in the us, I mean we've even seen like, we've seen the White House, we've seen NASA, we've seen different government organisations jump onto this as well and bring creators in and have you know, repeating contact with those creators and an ongoing relationship with them.

Verity Hurd [00:33:39]:

Yeah, that's such a nice example. I mean it also just reminds me that you can be, you can really have a niche. Does this girl just create review reviews on hoodies on TikTok?

Lia Haberman [00:33:51]:

I mean I think she does other things as well but I think that's what she's known for. Which like if we have any advice for creators out of this is like be the go to person so that you really are known for that one thing. Because I think that's where you know brands when you're looking for people like I would always go for a niche creator over kind of more of a generalist. There is room for generalists for certain things but I love somebody who dedicates all of their time to some, you know, Whether it's like an obscure hobby or an obsession over hoodies or whatever it is. Like, I love those niche people, they feel so passionately about something. They have so much depth of knowledge around this. And I think they also attract people who, you know, are like minded or who, who are interested in similar things. So, yeah, I love the deep dive.

Verity Hurd [00:34:37]:

Yeah, great advice as well. I'm going to shift the gears slightly so we cannot go into 2025 without talking about AI. And I suppose for you, how. How are brands going to best use AI to support community building and work in the creator space?

Lia Haberman [00:34:56]:

You know, it's funny, I, like, I can't remember, was it like the end of 2024, beginning of 2025, where like all of us talked about AI all of the time. The thing that I noticed over the year, like this year, specifically at conferences, for example, there were groans like when people would talk about AI. I think it got oversaturated, like it was too much, too fast. I think it also is, it's going to be the foundation of almost everything we do, but I think more from a back end, you know, like powering things that I don't necessarily need to know that your product or service uses AI. I just want to know that it works quickly, it works efficiently, it's, you know, it works well. So I think it's going to, we're going to move away from less of the things around which there can be hallucinations like, you know, Gen AI thinking about creating like art or video or copy. I don't think those things will disappear and I think they'll continue to improve and be refined, you know, but I think AI is really going to move to the back end and be the thing that powers most of what we're doing to find connections between people, to make connections between, you know, interests or groups of people and categorise them for you segment audiences, for example. So that's great.

Lia Haberman [00:36:12]:

And you know, I think AI is going to have a role in making things easier. I use it all the time for, for example, when I'm having conversations, it transcribes my conversations and it creates summaries for me of conversations that I've had. You know, whenever I do a phone meeting or a zoom meeting, for example. Incredibly helpful. But again, I think there's going to be less of an emphasis in 2025 on kind of the idea of like the average person sitting down at their computer and like using generative AI to produce something and more about fueling the services that we're already using and probably have had AI in them for a while. Like, I think in the consumer mind, AI is a relatively new thing, but I think AI has been around and has been powering a lot of this stuff already. So, yeah, I, you know, yes, we're going to see a lot of AI in 2025. I think the novelty of generative AI is kind of disappearing and people are getting a little bit tired of it.

Lia Haberman [00:37:07]:

But I think AI as a tool to power the creator economy is going to be tremendously helpful.

Verity Hurd [00:37:12]:

Do you think consumers are going to start using AI for reviews on products.

Lia Haberman [00:37:17]:

And brands in terms of kind of asking for an assist from AI to write the reviews for them?

Verity Hurd [00:37:23]:

No. As in like, to review products? As in, like, which is the best product? You know, if, if I'm looking for, say, a beauty serum, I could, you know, will I be using AI in the next few years to tell me which one to get?

Lia Haberman [00:37:38]:

Got it. Yeah. I mean, I like with Google's come out with their. What's it called? I think it's Search Overview, which is kind of AI responses to when you do searches. Yes. I mean, we're always looking for that kind of curation element of like, tell me which is the best one. And I do think that that is going to happen. At the same time, I do think that there's an incredible amount of, like a priority that people place on others like them, getting recommendations from friends and family.

Lia Haberman [00:38:06]:

And so I think that's the space where, whether it's consumers, whether it's creators, whether it's, you know, employee advocacy programmes, I do think that people are going to look to other people, especially until AI gets to a level where AI still gets a lot of things wrong. Right. I mean, I feel like sometimes AI is like my husband, like, no matter what, my husband always has an answer for stuff. And I'm like, sometimes you could just say, I don't know, it's fine, we're lost, you know, whatever, go ask for directions. But like, AI always wants to give you an answer. And so I think as long as, until we get to the next level of AI where there isn't these hallucinations or these, like, you know, add rocks to your pizza or whatever it is, I do think that people are still going to look to other people. Ask me five, ten years from now, that may have shifted. But I think for the foreseeable future, people might use that AI information, but then go look, kind of do a lateral search.

Lia Haberman [00:38:56]:

You get something from a Google search result, for example, then you go to TikTok or Instagram, you look for a creator that's been talking about the same product and look at what they're saying about it. Or you read Amazon reviews or you go to Expedia or Yelp or whatever it is that you're looking for feedback on. So I think we're still in a. I gotta fact cheque this because we know that AI can get it so wrong sometimes.

Verity Hurd [00:39:20]:

So I think just touching on the consumer journey, I think that's gonna shift and probably already is shifting because I think we are a lot more conscious of what we're buying and we want to buy into, like you said, like we want to buy into brands that we feel connected to. And so I think that that journey from like, you know, brand to purchase is going to be a lot longer and it's going to have so many different touch points now and high touch points as well. Like, I just think just going back to sort of like skincare and thinking like I was, I turned 40 this year, so I was instantly like, you know, checking out like publications like Sheer Looks and what are they saying? And then I was going on TikTok and then I was, you know, people were, you know, it just. The rabbit hole that I went through.

Lia Haberman [00:40:06]:

It's messy.

Verity Hurd [00:40:07]:

Yeah, it is, yeah.

Lia Haberman [00:40:09]:

But I mean, I think also that kind of points to, you look at the generation now that's kind of coming of age that's joining the workforce. You look at Gen Z, they have a, maybe a more limited budget. All we keep hearing about Gen Z is like, they're very frugal and they're very conscious about the money that they're spending and what they're spending it on and they want to know, they want reviews, for example, and that has led to them buying dupes. That has led to a resurgence in thrifting or looking at, you know, vintage type, you know, stuff. And yes, certainly as they earn more money, I think their tastes and habits might change. But I think, you know, for at least the next few years, I do think looking for is there value for money and have I checked the AI review, the, you know, the traditional beauty magazine, the creator, my favourite creator, what my friends are saying in groups or, you know, DMS or group chats or whatever it is. Like, I do think, like you said, there's going to be this kind of rabbit hole, spaghetti swirl of. It is no longer a linear customer journey and it is like a million different touch points to go through or I'm going to part with my hard Earned money.

Verity Hurd [00:41:18]:

Yeah, absolutely. Standout brands in 2025. Like, what do you think it's going to take for brands to do that, especially through, like, community and content? And it might just be that this might just be a summary of everything we've seen. But yeah, I'd love to kind of get your. How do brands stand out?

Lia Haberman [00:41:39]:

How do brands stand out? So it's kind of interesting. One of the things that, especially the past six months, what I've heard more than AI is IP or intellectual property. And the brands that are standing out are the ones that are doing things that are unique. So, you know, I'm thinking of like nut or butter or duolingo. And it doesn't have to be quite as, I don't know, surreal or kind of unhinged as what they're doing. But, like, what I have been hearing about and seeing a lot is thinking about, yes, memes are funny, memes are great. I don't think memes and humour are going anywhere. But, like, how can we do something that's specific to us? How can we be like the Jacques Mousse of, you know, whatever it is that you do? And so everybody's thinking about content series because it's all about content now, right? I mean, yes, it's about creators, but, like, ultimately, creators are creating content, people are consuming content.

Lia Haberman [00:42:33]:

And I think content has come to be almost like a proxy for brand. Somebody said that where they were like, content is the original cold email. So thinking about, like, that is what is reaching people. And I think if you're just using the same memes, the same jokes, not narrowing down, not finding your kind of unique content style, not speaking to your community, taking the feedback and integrating that into what you're doing. Like, I think that kind of the mega brand, the like, huge, faceless global corporation, I think is going to have a really hard time. I think we are going to niche, I think we're going to specialty, like, bespoke. And like, yeah, all of that might be. Might have AI, might be in there to kind of like help generate that stuff.

Lia Haberman [00:43:20]:

Because obviously not every brand can either scale down to be like, offer that kind of bespoke. Not every brand has the budget to create that kind of content. But I do think that that's what the experience that people are craving is like, I'm special. This connection I have with the brand is special. The product is special. And so even if that's, you know, cleverly crafted in a marketing department and using AI to do it, people want that feeling of, like, this isn't just built by robots. And, like, this is, you know, this is a special connection that I have, and this is content that resonates with me.

Verity Hurd [00:43:54]:

And if you were to have, like, one wish on your Santa's wish list when it comes to content for 2025, what would it be?

Lia Haberman [00:44:02]:

It's funny because I was actually just going to add this onto what I was saying. My one wish would be that social is a little bit less toxic. I want to log on without being triggered. I think this is, you know, we're at a unique time coming out of a pandemic here in the US we're facing, you know, an election. I think there's a lot of. And we keep hearing these awful stories about social and its impact on, especially, like, teen girls, mental health, you know, I think. And maybe this is unrealistic, but I just want to get back to a point where social was, like, a little bit more joyful. It was about finding connections, it was about communicating with people.

Lia Haberman [00:44:41]:

And maybe that ship has sailed, but maybe it's like, it comes back, but in a different way. And like, I, you know, we know that it's like these private spaces and we're sharing things among friends and family, for example. Maybe that's it. But. So it's just. I'm looking for, like, a more joyful experience on social.

Verity Hurd [00:44:58]:

Yeah, that's a great wish. And, yeah, like you said, in a way, I do think it probably has, I don't know, not passed, but there's. There's definitely been a shift. And, yeah, I agree. I think there's a way we can bring it back, but there'll always be a little bit of that, I suppose. But, yeah, I mean, the way. The way I use social, like my Instagram collections and, you know, with my friends and family and that, that's. That's what kind of like, you know, when I.

Verity Hurd [00:45:26]:

When I see a new thing popped into that collection and that it gives me a little bit of joy here and there. So, yeah, hopefully people will find their own way to bring back their joy and find ways to tune out the toxic elements of it.

Lia Haberman [00:45:41]:

And even if you're using it for, like, social justice, like, I love Gen Z. I have huge hopes for Gen Z. I think they're just, I don't know, like, I think that they're gonna change the world for the better. So even if they use it in a different way that I can't anticipate, like, take it and run with it. Gen Z. Yeah.

Verity Hurd [00:45:59]:

Lia, this has been so so insightful. I love talking to you. Thank you so much for joining us. Where can everybody find you?

Lia Haberman [00:46:09]:

Yeah, subscribe to my newsletter, ICYMI in case you missed it by Lia Haberman. It's on Substack or connect with me on LinkedIn.

Verity Hurd [00:46:17]:

Awesome. And yes, I said this in our last episode. We have got another episode with Lia like I said back in May. And Lia's newsletter is just a fountain of knowledge and expertise and it's one that you will enjoy having in your inbox every Friday. So thank you. We'll speak to you soon.

Lia Haberman [00:46:36]:

Thank you.

Paul Archer [00:46:39]:

That was another episode of Building Brand Advocacy, the world's top brand building podcast. To find out more about Building Brand Advocacy and how this podcast is part of a bigger plan for our Brand Building Cookbook. Then make sure to search for Building Brand Advocacy in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or anywhere else that podcasts are fine. And make sure you click subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. Thanks to Joule for sponsoring. To find out more, go to www.dual.tech. that's D U E L dot T E C H. And on behalf of the team here at Building Brand Advocacy, thanks for listening.