What is the secret sauce to launching a brand that stands out, in new markets & established ones?

Connection. Creativity. Building Advocacy. 

Papier knows it. Their recipe for this is tried & tested.

Forget counting followers – true Advocacy begins with real relationships with real people. The brands winning right now (and always) don’t just build audiences; they cultivate ecosystems of super fans, collaborators, and word-of-mouth champions. 

This week, Verity sits down with Holly Chapman (Head of Brand @ Papier) to uncover how she took the UK’s favourite stationary brand into the US market – and thrived.

From hosting grassroots journaling events to tapping into partnerships with global names like The Met, Holly shares an unfiltered look at the power of two-way dialogue, authentic storytelling, and small but intentional community-building efforts.

 

Grab your notebook. Find your pen. Make notes on…

 

• Building Ecosystems, Not Channels: Relying on one big marketing moment or a single channel isn’t enough to create lasting growth. Holly explains how layering partnerships, PR, organic social, and community-encouraging campaigns builds a holistic brand presence that thrives across touchpoints.

 

• Prioritizing Connection Over Clout: Holly’s approach to co-creating with influencers and tastemakers focuses on authenticity and shared values. Instead of one-off paid posts, she advocates for long-term partnerships; like supporting life milestones or involving creators in content direction, to foster trust and loyalty.

 

• Leaning Into Localization: Launching in the US taught Papier that every market is a collection of micro-markets with unique needs. By embracing local nuances and amplifying their British identity, they resonated deeply with diverse audiences while staying true to their core brand values.

 

• Engaging Fans Beyond The Product: Advocacy thrives when customers feel part of something bigger than a transaction. Holly shares how Papier creates opportunities for fans to connect over shared interests, like creativity and self-expression, making the brand a hub for meaningful interaction and connection. (Though covetable items like their exclusive ‘Paper Person’ hats don’t hurt, either.)

 

If you’re serious about building an Advocacy-first brand that scales, don’t miss this. 

 

Rate & review Building Brand Advocacy:

• Apple Podcasts
• Spotify

Connect with Holly:

• On LinkedIn
• By emailing holly@papier.com 
• By personally asking for her mailing address, to share handwritten notes!

 

 

Holly Chapman [00:00:00]:

The way that people say community, which means like, oh, we've got a community of 500,000, because you've got that many followers on Instagram, that is not your community. They're people who like your brand and engage with it. But really your community are like those people who say, oh, you need. You're looking for a gift. Have you tried Papier? I'm obsessed with them. I went to their office the other day. They did a journaling event. It's like they're your people and you want as many people saying that about your brand as possible.

 

Paul Archer [00:00:35]:

Have you ever wondered why some brands grow exponentially, building legions of passionate fans that live and die by their logos and some, well, don't? I do, all the time. And that's probably because I'm a massive brand nerd. But I believe there's a secret sauce at the core of every remarkable brand. A formula that sparks the growth of passionate communities, of superfans, building a business and a reputation that will last for years to come. 

 

In this podcast, we tap into the greatest marketing minds in the world as they share the exact tactics and strategies used to build the world's greatest brands. Dropping actionable insights every brand builder can apply. 

 

My name is Paul Archer and I'm a specialist in Brand Advocacy and word-of-mouth. Having consulted for hundreds of brands on the topic. Co-hosting with me is the wonderful Verity Hurd, expert on the bleeding edge of social media.

 

It's time to learn and build Brand Advocacy.

 

Verity Hurd [00:01:24]:

Hey, it's Verity here, your co host of the Building Brand Advocacy podcast. Thank you so much for listening. We've got some incredible guests coming up, sharing insights and tips that can truly shift the marketing landscape. If you want to be the first to hear, make sure you hit that follow button. The more people following the show, the bigger and better we can make it. So if you're loving what you hear, don't forget to follow and spread the word. Thanks again for listening. It really means a lot.

 

I hope you enjoy this next episode. Hello and welcome to Building Brand Advocacy. Today I welcome Holly Chapman to the show. Holly has over a decade of experience in brand PR community, the partnership space, and you're now head of brand at Papier.

 

Holly Chapman [00:02:09]:

I am.

 

Verity Hurd [00:02:09]:

Hi, welcome to the show. I am so excited to talk to you today. Holly, you have recently just spent 18 months in the US so I want to get straight into that because that is such a bold and hands on move that you've taken to obviously launch the brand in the market in the US So what was the first priority that you did when you got when you hit the ground?

 

Holly Chapman [00:02:29]:

Yeah, well, it was an amazing Experience. So would really recommend, if anyone is kind of thinking about launching their brand in the US to kind of get that immersion, I think it's really important. I think for me the strategy was really around kind of building brand relationships and networking. So here in the UK we have lots of great relationships with brands, people, companies, influencers, who kind of all advocate for the brand and support our brand in lots of different ways. And I think we had no one there. So for us the kind of first priority was really on starting to build our brand network. So for example, we have a great relationship with the soho health team in the uk. So one of the first things I did was set up a meeting with the US team.

 

And it's not about copy and paste, like can we just get the exact same people? But I think it was about building those initial relationships with those people to find ways of working and starting that conversation. So that was really the first priority when we got there. And I think something really impactful that we did in the first few weeks was meet with editors and we hadn't kind of sorted our PR agency or any kind of PR support. So I kind of hand emailed many editors of different types, so whether it's a commerce editor or a lifestyle editor, and really kind of got in front of them and we really spoke about the brand. And it was interesting to know kind of what they liked about the brand and what they kind of thought was interesting or different, where they saw it fitting in their publication. And I think it was those conversations that were just so important as a first step.

 

Verity Hurd [00:04:00]:

Yeah, I mean we're hearing so much about this two way dialogue and a lot of brands say that they're, you know, that's one of their main, like they have to have that two way dialogue now with their customers, but obviously from a PR point of view as well. And like, as you said, how did that kind of like overall then that kind of first thing, the priority, how did that shape the strategy going forward?

 

Holly Chapman [00:04:20]:

So from kind of those initial conversations and networking, it then kind of enabled us to pull out kind of the key pillars that we were going to focus on for the us. So from those conversations we really kind of tried to learn what was most relevant and drive that relevancy. So we thought about what partnerships we were going to launch and we knew that that was a really important part of whatever we were going to do in the us so it then kind of informed what we did, partnerships wise, what we did with the media, how we kind of worked with them, how we thought about communities. 

 

So we also, I met up with, like, a lot of different creators, how we thought about building our community, what we were going to set up. And I think we quickly understood in the US that the, the payment fees were much higher than in the uk. So from those conversations, we then kind of worked out okay, you know, what's our budget going to be and how are we going to play this and how are we going to stand out? And I think for us, we kind of realised pretty early on that we needed that kind of grassroots community building. So that kind of became a really, like, integral part of the strategy and structure of what we did there.

 

Verity Hurd [00:05:26]:

What was their, like, response to the brand? Because, I mean, here it's like the coolest stationary brand, right?

 

Holly Chapman [00:05:33]:

I hope so.

 

Verity Hurd [00:05:34]:

I think so. And what was their, like, initial response to the brand?

 

Holly Chapman [00:05:39]:

Yeah, so again, like, in the uk, you can rely on that brand awareness to get you quite far in a lot of conversations with influencers. So there that, like, they don't know anything about us. I think what they loved about us was the design LED and the aesthetic, and I think that kind of got us a really long way. 

 

I think another really core part of storytelling was around, like, the collaborations that we do and did. And I think that that also was really impactful in the first kind of couple of months and years, really, in the us. So I think that's what they loved and they definitely pick that out. And I think also it's kind of the versatility of our product and I think we learned pretty early on that it works for lots of people. So we have a wellness journal.

 

So great, we can talk to that wellness vertical. But we also have a productivity planner, so we can also talk to entrepreneurs and founders. So I think we quickly kind of found our niches that we wanted to speak to and kind of went from there. But I think overall the design and aesthetic was something that stood out as like, a key kind of selling point.

 

Verity Hurd [00:06:36]:

Yeah, absolutely. And in terms of, like, because obviously you embedded yourself in the US for 18 months, what do you think were your main insights from doing that? That you felt that you probably wouldn't have been able to do that if you obviously were trying to build the brand from the uk.

 

Holly Chapman [00:06:51]:

Yeah, I think you can get a lot from surveys and you can get a lot from data and analytics. So, like, it's not very helpful for me to understand, like, what people are buying in Tennessee, because we can see that from our sales data. But, for example, I think what you can't get is those like conversational pieces. And you can't get that qualitative data. So I think something that we learned pretty early on was around kind of our Britishness and how important or not important that was in. In the US And I think that we decided to lean on that. And so kind of one of our core messaging pillars is around, like, created in London, designed in London. And that's something that we felt was, was important in the US and when we actually launched there, we did a big dinner and it was like a big British dinner.

 

It was like, it wasn't a roast, but it was at a very kind of.

 

Verity Hurd [00:07:40]:

I want to know what was on that dinner plate.

 

Holly Chapman [00:07:42]:

It was like, it was kind of a British style, sort of not a pub, but a chic, beautiful restaurant. It's called Freeman's in New York. And that was kind of how we kind of set that tone with people. But I don't know if we would have necessarily gotten that from just a survey because how do you ask that? Like, do you care that we're British? Like, I don't know. It's kind of a hard question to ask. So I think that was something that was really important for us. And then I think just understanding the nuances of the market and I think perhaps going there, lots of brands might think that, oh, it's the U.S. like, we've just got to crack the U.S.

 

and that's true. But really the U.S. is micro markets. And New York is very different to la. That's very different. You know, like the Southern states and Texas also very different. So I think that when we kind of were there, we were able to understand what was important to that customer in that particular place. So in New York, they really value convenience and being there.

 

Like, yeah, they do. So for us it was like, okay, we knew then we need to be in retailers here because they want to be able to pick up a notebook when they want it at any time of day or night. Whereas, for example, in la, it's kind of, it's not that shopping culture, so they're happy to kind of buy online, but it's more around kind of how the, the COVID of the product and then being seen with it. So I'd say they're kind of a bit more into the aesthetic and, and style and, and kind of that wellness product does really well there.

 

Verity Hurd [00:09:14]:

That's really interesting. And you're right, like you. A survey can tick a few boxes, but actually having those conversations, that means you can go a lot more in depth and just find out a Lot more. And it is the building, the connection piece as well, which is super, super key. So for brands that are eyeing the US up, what do you think is the one thing that they need to get right before they go out there and launch?

 

Holly Chapman [00:09:37]:

I think it's just answering one question, which is just what makes your brand different? That's kind of the key. The key question to answer, like, what are you creating for the US that they don't already have? And how do you therefore, how do you kind of translate that and make sure that you're messaging that? 

 

So for us, it was our design and kind of that kind of piece all around that. But I think if you answer that, there's probably other key questions you could ask. But if you're going to keep it really simple, I think you need to understand your story as well and kind of be very clear. You can't be vague. Who are you targeting with your product? So for us, we're very clear on who our customer is. And she might be slightly older in the US Than in the uk, but we really are targeting that millennial. We're not trying to target, you know, everybody.

 

And I think you just have to be quite specific with, with what you're going in with. But I think that. And then also having everything set up for success, you know, in the back end and being able to deliver. So for us, we print everything in the US So it means that, you know, sustainability wise and getting things to you on time, it's kind of. We need all of that in place before we could kind of go and launch there. And we knew we needed that back in the uk.

 

Verity Hurd [00:10:50]:

Now then, obviously, have you built a team over in the U.S. yes, we.

 

Holly Chapman [00:10:55]:

Have kind of have a remote team in the us but our kind of more senior roles are all still back in the uk And I just get to travel, which is really nice. So I still get to go back. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I think, you know, I loved New York and would live there again in a heartbeat. But I think when I came back to London, I was like, oh, wow, like, I can breathe here. Like it is. It is a different pace.

 

Verity Hurd [00:11:19]:

Absolutely, yeah.

 

Holly Chapman [00:11:20]:

Not for everyone.

 

Verity Hurd [00:11:22]:

How do you think that experience then has kind of thinking about the whole brand building and kind of growth piece. How has that really shaped your strategy overall, do you think?

 

Holly Chapman [00:11:32]:

I think before I kind of. We launched and grew in the U.S. i think I. I didn't really think as broadly around kind of growth. I think growth has a. Like, when I even say the word growth, I'm imagining like a graph going up. And I actually think that since doing this, I really think about brand strategy as an ecosystem. And because we couldn't rely on one billboard, we don't have the budgets if we wanted to do a billboard campaign, but we couldn't just rely on this one ta da moment, just one channel.

 

I think that it kind of has made me aware of all the different areas that really kind of contribute to growth. So it is kind of the partnerships piece, it's community, it's primarily, it's organic, social, it's your team as influencers and the influence they have. And I kind of think it's all of those pieces together. And I think we're now really good at thinking about our brand as an ecosystem rather than just on kind of thinking about share a voice or thinking about how all of those channels contribute. And in the us, we really couldn't just rely on one. So that was important.

 

Verity Hurd [00:12:44]:

I mean, obviously you cover obviously brand, community, PR partnerships in terms of. So with all thinking about all of that together, there's no specific kind of like tactic that you think has had the most traction for the brand in.

 

Holly Chapman [00:12:58]:

The US or in general? In general, in general, I think that if you were going to kind of look at our brand, our timeline of our brand, I think where we've seen the most buzz and kind of growth is where we've launched partnerships. And we think about partnerships in lots of different ways. But I think for us, collaborations was a really key part of growing our brand and it enabled us to get in front of new audiences. And that's exactly the same in the US too. 

 

So when we got there, I arrived in February and by the May we were launching a partnership with the Met in New York. So very kind of central to that market and an iconic institution but well known throughout the us. And I think it set our intention that the US was important to us. So we're not just going to launch a collaboration here that is not relevant, doesn't resonate.

 

And I think overall partnerships has been really key. Something else that I'm really passionate about because my background is communications is always that PR piece. And I think PR has been something that has been always on for us and having that outlet to tell our stories. We're now like an editor favourite in the uk. It's quite different now. 

 

We're kind of trying to think about how we can, you know, do something that is, that makes us stand out again and how we can kind of create a bit more buzz in the uk, whereas in the US we were like a new brand and we were kind of thinking about how we can, how we can tell our story and what our messaging is beyond just like our products. 

 

So, you know, we really stand for like creativity and self expression and how does that come to life in the articles that are written about you? And I think like partnerships and media have been really key alongside kind of our community piece. But I think that you can, when you ask people about Papier, they're like, oh, I saw that you did that product with, you know, the Met or Rosie Esselin or we've done some really cool stuff with Headspace or Away.

 

You know, I think that people kind of remember those moments.

 

Verity Hurd [00:14:49]:

Yeah, I'd love to kind of just, I've heard a few really interesting conversations around partnerships and how brands are, how that's evolving for brands. And obviously you said like you do it in lots of different ways. I'd love to just kind of, I don't know, tap into your strategy, I suppose, with the partnership piece a little bit more, if that's okay.

 

Holly Chapman [00:15:07]:

Yeah, of course. I love talking about partnership. Yeah, we think about them in a few, few different ways. So I guess there's that collaborations bucket that we kind of already have covered. So that's where we would create a product with a design on that's co create. Co created the resource. Heavy but high impact. So really good for press.

 

And I think we've, we've used to do a lot more of those and we've kind of, we've moved away from doing as many because they're so time intensive. But I think that there's still a really important place for them and I think we'll kind of see more and more, I think as kind of a trend coming through will probably be those kind of creator partnerships within that. 

 

So I think maybe brands will look to kind of work with creators on creating product. And so I think that kind of collaboration piece has really been key for us. And then we think about just more generally brand partnerships and that might be where we work with Alo Yoga Away Headspace. We haven't created a product with them, but maybe we've done an event with them. So we did a yoga class with Alo Yoga. We did some fun things with SoulCycle for Valentine's Day.

 

And it's kind of those brand partnerships where a brand you love, like you might not know us at all, but if you're a soul cycle user and you've come to that class, you're like, oh, there's this cool brand that they've done this cool thing. And I think that we find that those are less resource heavy to execute but just as impactful. So we love doing stuff like that. 

 

And then we think about partnerships kind of in the editorial space. So how do we make sure our content is relevant in terms of who we're speaking to on our blog or we've actually got a newspaper coming out. So who we're kind of going to be featuring on that. And then there's also kind of the influencer and community partnerships. So we think of influencer as tastemakers where there might be more kind of top of funnel and people who are kind of ambassadors for your brand.

 

And then there's kind of the community piece which is like your customers and your advocates. And we do still think about like partnerships that are relevant with them, whether it's like a one on one partnership or whether it's like supporting a community that they're passionate about. So I think there's kind of all those different ways that partnerships is kind of covered.

 

Verity Hurd [00:17:14]:

That's incredible and so impactful as well. I mean, I love the whole idea of not necessarily creating a product with someone, but just that awareness piece of like collaborating with the right people at the right event at the right time. And just, yeah, like I said how impactful that can be. And you mentioned there about obviously brands kind of collaborating with creators. And there is a bit of a buzzword at the moment like with this whole co-creation piece. I mean, I've talked about it a lot, I suppose. Yeah, just going back to that a little bit. How do you kind of see the relationship between brands and creators evolving? And obviously we can tap into that co-creation piece a little bit more.

 

But do you see anything else happening between that relationship?

 

Holly Chapman [00:17:53]:

Yeah, definitely. I think there's so much happening that I think, you know, one thing is really moving away from that more transactional relationship. I think consumers are just so savvy to like those posts where it's like buy this notebook or like I'm obsessed with this hot chocolate and it's like you were obsessed with tea last week. Come on. 

 

I think that we're definitely kind of seeing that, that trend and at Papier. It's definitely something that we're trying to move away from and, and to kind of think more about, more authentically about the partnership we have with that person. So it might be supporting a life event for them rather than it just being like a paid post about something that's not relevant. So I think it's kind of moving more towards that partnership piece.

 

I was on a shoot the other day, we were shooting our holiday campaign and we were using kind of a tastemaker and influencer as one of our models. And she was like, oh, do you know what's great? I'm actually being asked to be a creative director on shoots. And I'm like, that's really cool. And it got me kind of thinking about it. And we're launching in the summer. One of our cohorts of customers is students, which is quite different from the rest of the year. But we sell a planner, which is for students. And I was like, we should have like Gen Z, like younger audience.

 

We should have someone come and kind of support us with creative direction on the shoot. And I think that's what we're going to do for our kind of summer shoot next year. Because I think it's just a more interesting way of, is getting that perspective that we, we might be missing. But it's also kind of if they're also then telling their community about that experience working with us, I think it just makes the partnership with that person just more authentic and overall just much stronger. 

 

So I think that we're kind of moving away to a more kind of mutual partnership together. And then I think other trends we're seeing is sort of the rise of different platforms. And I'm personally very excited about substack. It feels like podcasting is back too.

 

And I think it's like, how do we work with creators in supporting their endeavours and whether that is their substack? So could you become a headline sponsor for their substack or whether it's an affiliate link in their substack or working with them in their community building efforts. So we love working with people who are like, oh, I could, I'm obsessed with vision boarding. Could I create an event with you? It's like, yes, we love that. That's so much more interesting than kind of just this sort of inauthentic, kind of paid ad style. So I think that's kind of how we're. How I'm seeing it shift and I think it's evolving really quickly. But brands who kind of keep up and are able to kind of maintain those relationships and conversations with their kind of key ambassadors and kind of connect with them in a more interesting way, I think will kind of win in that space.

 

Verity Hurd [00:20:38]:

Absolutely. I mean, we've really interested in what you're saying about some of these other platforms that are coming up. I was at an event last Week actually. And they were saying about platforms are now kind of like blurring together because, I mean, I wrote a post about this as well and someone was kind of complaining. I saw about a month ago that LinkedIn was becoming like, here's my day in the life of. And all of these kind of things. And they were like, it's not Instagram, take it elsewhere. But we're seeing now Instagram taking on more form, you know, like forms of like LinkedIn for example.

 

So it's blurring and while that's happening, there seems to be a space that's opening up for. And obviously like with Twitter, like X. Sorry, like dying of death. Like obviously it is opening up more space for things like Blue Sky. But I was really interested to hear what you said about substack as well. 

 

And yeah, I think that's super interesting for next year, particularly in terms of how brands are gonna adapt and where they're gonna go and. Yeah, take it, take it to the next level. You mentioned about your, about your advocates and I was just wondering what have you found to be some really great channels or some really great ways to kind of like harness your advocates with the brand?

 

Holly Chapman [00:21:47]:

We're our Papier broadcast channel at the moment. I don't know if other brands have kind of been experimenting this space. I know Refy have done a really good job and they were kind of our inspiration and we hope one day to have 12k members as they do. But at the moment we have like 1.4k members with our broadcast channel. And the way that we're kind of using that is really, they're kind of our most passionate customers and so we love to give them exclusive offers, exclusive content that they can't kind of get anywhere else. And that's kind of been working really well and it's something I'm particularly excited about. 

 

And I think we're also kind of using that group of people along with our pen pals who are kind of our more traditional ambassadors that we kind of have often paid relationships with, but not always. We're kind of using them more in terms of our product development and our kind of thinking about our design and aesthetic and getting kind of more feedback.

 

So I think brands who use their customers and advocates in the right way and kind of engage them. I think people love to vote on colours and then they're more likely to buy it. So we launched a really fun limited edition cap. I'll send you one. It's really cool. It says paper person on the front and had lots of different Colours and we had people choose which one they wanted and then when they kind of came out, they're not available to buy on site. So you can only really get them if you participate in activity with us. So whether that's like sharing a post or taking a photo of our wild post is in London or in New York.

 

And we found that because they had kind of been part of the design process and choosing the colour and how it kind of looked, that people were much more excited to kind of get one. And it has become this kind of covetable item, which I think is pretty fun.

 

Verity Hurd [00:23:32]:

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Do you think like with the private spaces? Because obviously that's one of the things that's coming up in conversation around 20, 25 and we've talked about it a lot this year as well around Dark Social and obviously just going back to your broadcast channel. And it sounds like it's not just another channel, it's you guys actually fostering more of a conversation with your fans. Like, do you see that kind of like where do you see the sort of like the dark space for you guys? And how are you gonna sort of like keep utilising these private spaces to have that two way dialogue? I suppose?

 

Holly Chapman [00:24:05]:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think for January we're kind of bringing back our event series where like, they're very small, community driven events, they're not particularly scalable and I think that's where, you know, as your brand grows, it's kind of like, you know, you're always trying to get as much ROI out of everything that you do. And I think we've kind of, we've been missing that connection point and so we've, we've kind of decided to bring them back and we're hosting sort of journaling, vision board workshops, scrapbooking with our kind of community. 

 

So these are not events for influencers, they're not precedents there for people who love our brand and also want to connect with each other. And I think that is really important as you're kind of growing your brand. Like, how do you give access to your customers to either tastemakers and creators or to your actual brand and bring them in behind the scenes and kind of, you know, we're hosting a lot of them at our office, which we call Maison Papier. And it is, you know, it's a lovely office, but it's not, you know, this, this 5,000 pound event that we're hosting and I think it's kind of. But people, when they come to our office, we've hosted Panels and talks there.

 

It's like, oh, God, this is where it happens. Like, this is where the products are designed. Yeah. And, you know, we do have, like, a photo shoot studio and there's often shoots going on at the same time. And I think people love to kind of be brought in, and I think it is about those, you know, our broadcast channel is great for those conversations. And then it's like, how do we then also bring that to life? And, you know, it's not necessarily about these big, glitzy.

 

Verity Hurd [00:25:39]:

Yeah, it doesn't. Neither.

 

Holly Chapman [00:25:40]:

Doesn't need to be. It can be really, I think, as long as it's, you know, centred around your. Your product and your brand values. So ours is creativity, which is amazing because so much stuff is creative, whether it's a painting workshop, whether it's like a walk in the wild and you sketching birds on the way. I think our product, we're so lucky. It's so versatile. But, you know, even if you had a. A sportswear brand, I think there's just so much rich material kind of in anything if you really want to dive into it.

 

But I think it's just using those, you know, verticals to create, you know, it is an opportunity to create content. But really it's about creating community. And not just in the, like, the way that people say community, which means, like, oh, we've got a community of 500,000, because you've got that many followers on Instagram. That is not your community. They're people who like your brand and engage with it, but really your community are like those people who say, oh, you need. You're looking for a gift. Have you tried Papier? I'm obsessed with them. I went to their office the other day.

 

They did a journaling event. It's like they're your people that you kind of. And you want as many people saying that about your brand as possible.

 

Verity Hurd [00:26:42]:

I also loved what you said about that they get to connect with each other and not just with the brand as well. And I think that, for me, like, having these conversations has become really key in terms of that growth of that community. And one brand really sticks out for me. And we interviewed the founder of Scampin dude, and that community is just next level. When you hear the stories of how they do actually connect, like, they go around to each other's houses and drink wine and watch Jo go live on Instagram and it's. And I think the friendships that are made is just so powerful because they'll just keep talking and talking. And talking like you said, like it is that you want them to be that advocate the sort of storytellers on the ground on behalf of you. But that friendship piece and that connection piece and is just, yeah, super cool.

 

And like you said, getting them together is just as important as meeting you guys, I suppose.

 

Holly Chapman [00:27:34]:

Oh, probably more so. And I think like, you know, in our everyday life if you just sort of zoom out from like work, it's like how many opportunities do you get to kind of do that and connect. And for me, I'm a member of a few book clubs and I cherish that time and I love, you know, that time away from my family and just kind of being able to talk about something new. And I think if you can kind of find a passion that people are interested in that relates to your product too, that's just like a win win. And yeah, I think it's just, it's what we're all craving. I think it's like an, a macro trend in general, not just in kind of brand marketing.

 

Verity Hurd [00:28:14]:

Yeah, absolutely. Holly, you've had over a decade of experience. I said at the start, what do you think has been the most valuable lesson that you've learned about building really strong and like enduring brands?

 

Holly Chapman [00:28:30]:

I think it's about not putting all your eggs in one basket and it's kind of about testing different channels and it's kind of not going, not making too much of a stand on like one doing only one specific thing or saying like, oh, we're never going to do paid employment, you know, start kind of being, being too rash in those decisions, especially in the early days. I think enduring brands are ones that have connection with you and I think whether that's a connection through a partnership or community event. And I think that's what we're all kind of, that's what we're always aiming to kind of build. 

 

And I think with Papier especially the product lends itself, like I said, to just so many different milestones and events and you know, acts of creative expression that I think it's kind of, we're very lucky in that way. But I think the best brands really kind of make, make you fall in love with them and make you trust them. And yeah, I think for me it's kind of been about making the small, intentional, sometimes non scalable efforts are actually the ones that you need to do those foundational pieces to then get that scale and get that growth. And you know, eventually Nike don't need to do as much of this anymore, although maybe they do with their. Maybe, maybe they do need to kind of go back to their roots a little bit and think about how they're kind of engaging their brand and community.

 

But I think in general it's those like, smaller intentional efforts that are important.

 

Verity Hurd [00:30:02]:

Yeah. And yeah, like I said, I think it's the simple effort. You know, like, I was just thinking, like, we're kind of like going back onto a conversation here. But, you know, we held an event, it'll be this time last year and we just had it in what was our office then. And you know, it's actually quite, you know, it was a lovely space once you get inside the office. But going in and like, you know, we all just sat on these like really big office chairs. But we held like this really small, intimate panel and it was the first time we'd ever kind of got our community together. It was the first ever live podcast that we did.

 

But it was so intimate and just so lovely and really cheap. We just got loads of pizza and just boiling loads of wine and it was great. Yeah, just want to do more of that. And I really like the analogy of bonfire, bonfire, bonfire, firework in terms of how to keep that buzz going throughout the year. You don't always need big firework displays.

 

Holly Chapman [00:30:54]:

No, it's definitely like those pulse points. And maybe your hero is the big collaboration, but we're launching our campaign in January around just start and it's all about whatever you've wanted to do. Just do it, just start it, put pen to paper and really kind of be intentional. And for that, our hero is not a collaboration. Our pulse points really are those community activations and events around all the things that you might want to start. Whether it's setting your intentions and doing your vision boarding or whether it's about building your personal brand on LinkedIn in or in. In other ways which everybody is doing. And yeah, I think it's kind of.

 

We all have those little micro and sometimes macro goals and I think for us it's like, how do we kind of tie our campaign into like the overall feeling but then not always rely on this. Yeah, like big out of home campaign which, you know, with a startup budget is. Is not always kind of realistic to kind of achieve. And I actually think, think if we, you know, if you do go in with an all guns blazing like out of home or a celebrity campaign, I think it's that on its own is just. Is not. There's nothing. It's just kind of crickets afterwards. So yeah, it's definitely that and I think it's also about like anything you do is maximising it.

 

So we did a wild posting campaign recently. We had these pink posters all around London just ahead of Black Friday. And we. The way that, you know, the post is on their own, quite cost effective to do, but on their own it's just posters. But it was kind of the way that we thought about it was around, hey, how do we get people talking about these posters? How do we get people sharing them? And so we did a big sign of thunderclap moment on LinkedIn where I think there are 120 people at Papier. We got every single person to post and they were incentivized to post with the posters. And it's actually that activity that maximising it that, that people saw, you know, rather than the post. You might not be in London, but you probably saw a LinkedIn post or you probably saw a post on Instagram around it and people were like going out there, trying to get our caps by resharing it.

 

And I think that's something I've also probably learned is just sort of whatever you're doing, whether it is a community event or, you know, it can just be pizzas in your office.

 

Verity Hurd [00:33:09]:

Yeah.

 

Holly Chapman [00:33:10]:

But, you know, are you getting content with that? Are you getting feedback from people who are there to ask them what they're. What are they interested in? Why did they attend this event? You know, whatever you're doing, just make sure it's. You maximise and make it worthwhile.

 

Verity Hurd [00:33:23]:

Awesome. And in terms of like, your specific role, head of brand, like, how do you think it's evolved? Because I don't want to talk about this divide between like, performance and brand because I don't think it should be. I think we should, you know, like, I think it should all work together holistically, but obviously it does kind of feel like more and more conversations are more towards, like the brand side of things these days. So. Yeah, how has it evolved for you, like, and where do see it going sort of over the next sort of like three to five years?

 

Holly Chapman [00:33:53]:

I think we have seen the dominance of paid and performance marketing, especially in terms of spend and kind of the way that lots of brands have been positioning themselves. They've really been relying on that kind of, that kind of media to bring in new customers rather than kind of fostering other avenues to attract them. And I do think that that has shifted definitely in the last 12 months, like you've mentioned. 

 

I think it's great to see brand leaders have more of a voice at the table. I think it still remains challenging to kind of put a number on everything that you're doing. But I think people are more open minded now about the impact of brand. And we've also seen the fact that with lots of brands who haven't done the, they haven't been doing community, their organic social is stiff and stale. I think you're seeing that their ads are not performing well.

 

So we're seeing this like, again, the word ecosystem. Like, we're seeing that everything sits in an ecosystem. So if your brand is not performing, your ads are not performing. And I think we're seeing more now or hopefully in the next three to five years we'll be seeing more of that collaboration between performance and brand.

 

Verity Hurd [00:35:06]:

Yeah, hopefully, hopefully. And then one thing that I have to ask everybody. How do you build brand advocacy?

 

Holly Chapman [00:35:13]:

Lots of different ways. We really kind of think about advocacy in a few different pillars. So we think about it from our kind of influencer lens. We think about it from our customer lens and then we also think about it from our brand networking lens. And that's kind of that piece I was talking to at the beginning of the conversation around those people that you meet who then kind of are like, oh, suggest your brand for something, for an experience. And I think that we think about it in those different ways. And advocacy is not just that, like, mention me referral code. And I think that is what some people think advocacy is.

 

I think it is those kind of word of mouth, kind of. What would you say that is? Sorry.

 

Verity Hurd [00:35:58]:

It's okay.

 

Holly Chapman [00:35:59]:

It is word of mouth rather than.

 

Verity Hurd [00:36:02]:

Just sort of the bog standard kind of like, you know, here's 10% off. Like, I hate that.

 

Holly Chapman [00:36:09]:

And I think everyone can see through that. And I think it's just, just, you know, is the content you put out, like, are you giving value to your customers in that way? Like, why should they follow you? Are you inspiring them? It is. Advocacy is so many different things. And you want to, you know, induce as many different ways for people to talk about how great your brand is as possible. And it's not just, yeah, the mention, not only mention me, but it's not just that kind of referral piece. I think there's so many other ways. And we try to think about it in kind of, kind of within our brand ecosystem and holistically awesome.

 

Verity Hurd [00:36:43]:

Holly, where can people find you?

 

Holly Chapman [00:36:45]:

They can find me on LinkedIn. I love LinkedIn. I think it's going to be a hot platform for next year. So LinkedIn, I'm Holly Chapman, or you can send me an email if it's kind of Papier related. I'm Hollyapier.com or you can write me a letter. I would love that. Send me a note.

 

Verity Hurd [00:37:00]:

Holly, this has been so insightful. Thank you so much for joining us today.

 

Holly Chapman [00:37:05]:

Thank you for having me.

 

Paul Archer [00:37:07]:

That was another episode of Building Brand Advocacy, the world's top brand building podcast. To find out more about Building Brand Advocacy and how this podcast is part of a bigger plan for our brand building cookbook, then make sure to search for Building Brand Advocacy in Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or anywhere else that podcasts are fine. And make sure that you click subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. Thanks to Duel for sponsoring. To find out more, go to www.duel.tech. That's D U E L dot T E C H and on behalf of the team here at Building Brand Advocacy, thanks for listening.