Jo Bird [00:00:00]:
Personal brand. More and more brands are realising and I get them come to me and the first thing I will say is they will work together like it's 100%, one is going to amplify the other and vice versa.
Holly Chapman [00:00:10]:
I think it's like, how do we work with creators in supporting their endeavours? We love working with people who are like, I'm obsessed with like vision boarding. Could I create an event with you? It's like, yes.
Victoria Blinova [00:00:22]:
Like, we love that the brands that are there, like, this is our key metric, this is the call to action. The rest, it's up to you. Creativity, go crazy. Be as authentic as you can because, you know, we really need to drive view that authenticity, I think will be a very big trend.
Lia Haberman [00:00:37]:
Stop thinking of the carousel as a photo dump and really think about it as a storytelling opportunity. Just, it's kind of almost like photojournalism in terms of, you know what the story you're able to tell.
Paul Archer [00:00:59]:
Have you ever wondered why some brands grow exponentially, building legions of passionate fans that live and die by their logos and some. Well, don't. I do all the time and that's probably because I'm a massive brand nerd. But I believe there's a secret sauce at the core of every remarkable brand. A formula that sparks the growth of passionate communities, of superfans, building a business and a reputation that will last for years to come.
My name is Paul Archer and I'm a specialist in brand advocacy and word of mouth, having consulted for hundreds of brands on a topic.
Verity Hurd [00:01:33]:
Hey, it's Verity here, your co-host of the Building Brand Advocacy podcast.
Paul Archer [00:01:37]:
In this podcast, we tap into the greatest marketing minds in the world. They share the exact tactics and strategies used to build the world's greatest brands. Dropping actionable insights every brand builder can apply.
Verity Hurd [00:01:49]:
We've got some incredible guests coming up, sharing insights and tips that can truly shift the marketing landscape. If you want to be the first to hear, make sure you hit that follow button. The more people following the show, the bigger and better we can make it. So if you're loving what you hear, don't forget to follow and spread the word. Thanks again for listening. It really means a lot. I hope you enjoy this next episode.
Paul Archer [00:02:12]:
It's time to learn and Build Brand Advocacy.
Verity Hurd [00:02:15]:
How do you see sort of content Trends developing for 2025? Is anything standing out?
Jo Bird [00:02:21]:
Yeah, so, I mean, we've seen a lot of brands move towards the broadcast channels and TikTok lives and I think it circles right back around to the idea of co creation and Saying to the audience, we're not just going to shout messaging at you, we're not just going to keep serving you content for you to scroll and enjoy. We actually want your opinion. Now, a brand that we've referenced a lot when I was at Lounge was Refy, because they were kind of one of those brands to be in this aspirational space. But to try the broadcast channel, to treat it like an ongoing drip feed of we want your opinion. We're working on this, what do you think of that? And then they took a bunch of regular consumers on a trip away, treated them like influencers. You know, it's really a statement of we want you to be part of our journey. Like, can you come along for the ride? And that's what Gymshark has always done, you know, with their Lift events. It's very much about, like, come along for the ride with us.
Come and be part of creating the most exciting brand that you're gonna see this decade. Maybe beyond that.
Verity Hurd [00:03:21]:
Yeah.
Jo Bird [00:03:21]:
So I think the trends really evolve around getting people involved as much as physically possible.
Verity Hurd [00:03:29]:
I think live commerce is gonna be huge and sort of going into next year and, you know, we're seeing Ben Gallagher from Luxe Collective, like talking about like selling like 12,000 pound bags on lives now and stuff. I don't know why, but it blows my mind. It shouldn't because I'm in this industry, but it does really blow my mind. But when you see a live and you kind of connect with someone and that, you know, that sort of like, I suppose it's been a presenter, isn't it?
And there's some presenters that I've seen with brands that I kind of flick through and it sounds awful, but then there's others that I really gel to and I'm like, oh, I really like what you're doing and how you're doing it. And then, yeah, you can kind of like really interact with them in real time.
And I think, and particularly when the founders do it, like when Ben does it, it’s personal brand.
Jo Bird [00:04:13]:
Like, Ben has built the most phenomenal personal brand, as did Ben Francis.
Verity Hurd [00:04:18]:
Yeah.
Jo Bird [00:04:19]:
Aimee from Odd Muse, you know, Jess from REFY, you've got Grace, for TALA. Yeah. There's so many examples of amazing personal brands and that's probably another shift I'm seeing now. More and more brands are realising and I get them come to me just because of the following I've built on LinkedIn. We help me build my personal brand because I'm launching a brand sooner. I've Just launch brand and I feel like they're going to work together and the first thing I will say is they will work together. Like it's 100%, one is going to amplify the other and vice versa. I don't think they're mutually exclusive tactics anymore.
I think they are more and more fusing together. And you know, traditionally we were just in like a broadcast world where you'd walk down the street, there'd be a billboard, there'd be this. We got shouted to. Now I love the fact that it's more conversational and I'm involved and I feel like I'm building things with these incredibly aspirational people.
Verity Hurd [00:05:13]:
How do you kind of see the relationship between brands and creators evolving? And obviously we can tap into that co creation piece a little bit more. But do you see anything else happening between that relationship?
Holly Chapman [00:05:24]:
Yeah, definitely. I think there's. There's so much happening that I think, you know, one thing is really moving away from that more transactional relationship. I think consumers are just so savvy to like those posts where it's like, buy this notebook or like, I'm obsessed with this hot chocolate and it's like you're obsessed with tea last week. Come on. I think that we're definitely kind of seeing that trend and at papier. It's definitely something that we're trying to move away from and to kind of think more authentically about the partnership we have with that person. So it might be supporting a life event for them rather than it just being like a paid post about something that's not relevant.
So I think it's kind of moving more towards that partnership piece. I was on a shoot the other day, we were shooting our holiday campaign and we were using kind of a tastemaker and influencer as one of our models. And she was like, oh, do you know what's great? I'm actually being asked to be a creative director on shoots. And I'm like, that's really cool. And it got me kind of thinking about it. And we're launching in the summer. One of our cohorts of customers is students, which is quite different from the rest of the year. But we sell a planner, which is for students.
And I was like, we should have Gen Z, like younger audience. We should have someone come and kind of support us with creative direction on the shoot. And I think that's what we're going to do for our kind of summer shoot next year. Because I think it's just a more interesting way of. It's getting that perspective that we might be missing. But it's also kind of if they're also then telling their community about that, their experience working with us, I think it just makes the partnership with that person just more authentic and overall just like much stronger. So I think that we're kind of moving away to a more like a more kind of mutual partnership together. And then I think other trends we're seeing is sort of the rise of different platforms.
And I'm personally very excited about substack. It feels like podcasting is back too. And I think it's like, how do we work with creators in supporting their endeavours and whether that is their substack. So could you become a headline sponsor for their substack or whether it's an affiliate link in their substack or working with them in their community building efforts? So we love working with people who are like, oh, I'm obsessed with vision boarding. Could I create an event with you? It's like, yes, we love that. That's so much more interesting than kind of just this sort of inauthentic kind of paid ad style. So I think that's kind of how we're. How I'm seeing it shift and I think it's evolving really quickly.
But brands who kind of keep up and are able to kind of maintain those relationships and conversations with the kind of key ambassadors and kind of connect with. Connect with them in a more interesting way I think will kind of win in that space.
Verity Hurd [00:08:09]:
Absolutely. With this short form, long form. Like, how do brands tactically kind of like balance to balance the two, to kind of like dominate their niche? Because, I mean, there's so much to think about across the two. Like even I'm like, yeah, it's super overwhelming.
Victoria Blinova [00:08:29]:
I think the short way or the TLDR to think about short versus long is. Short form is a way to introduce a new audience. Always think of it as the door to your brand. Literally, someone knocks on your door, they quickly peep and maybe they'll enter. Right? So all your short form content needs to be very exciting. Those three seconds need to be really, really interesting. Something highly entertaining, highly educational, highly inspirational. Just really, really get that new audience into the door.
So that's short form content. Long form content is all about depth of engagement. So here it's someone, let's say your D2C brand within the fashion space. And it's that person that really cares about the fabrics and really wants to mix and match and really understand what's that perfect winter coat and willing to watch a 10 minute video about, you know, what are the different opportunities available to them. That's a long form, deep engagement and that person, surprise, surprise, is more likely to buy and truly like engage with your brand. So I'd say really understand that these two types of video have different functions. They don't have the same function, not both of like the short form usually will get you the views, the long form or typically get will get you the engagement and the very, very strong interest and consideration into potentially buying right or truly doing the action. So one, understand it has two different objectives and then align it with your objectives.
If you're a brand, let's say you're dtc, you have zero budget, you're really struggling, you really need to get started and show your investors that you need investment, whatever it is. Maybe short form is your way to go and go crazy with volume and really, really put yourself out there as the most fun, cool whatever brand you are to engage that new audience. If you're a more mature brand, right. So did you see? Let's say you're the Kurt Geiger. Balance it out to appeal to your fun, cool new audience with short form and then think of a show or something incredibly valuable with lawn form. So here maybe weekly you do episodes with celebrities that use your brand. Maybe that's a way to appeal through entertainment. Or maybe with Lawnform you do in depth reviews that will be incredibly educational, valuable to your audience.
Basically here I'd say be very, very strategic on what kind of shows are very, very valuable for your audience.
Verity Hurd [00:10:58]:
Really good examples and ideas there. And I've heard a lot recently actually about brands doing more around like these mini like docu series type things. I'd love to see how they play about with it next year. Going into sort of like 2025 and thinking about content like what do you think is going to really stand out next year?
Victoria Blinova [00:11:17]:
There's so many things I want to say, but I'll push on something that I believe, just truly believe in. It's two things. One is continued standout, moment of authenticity. So the brands that will invest in that without the whole boring briefs that you send to creators and really force them into these legal loopholes and just stress them out with the amount of do this and do that kind of rules. Those are the brands I believe that will be, let's say, have slower impact. So versus the brands that are there. Like this is our key metric. This is the call to action.
The rest, it's up to you. Creativity, go crazy, be as authentic as you can, because, you know, we really need to drive views or just something very simple. So that authenticity, I think, will be a very big trend next year. And the other part is scale. So here it says just the brands that will engage with creators at scale. There's some brands that are already doing really, really good job with that. Just like I gave the example of kurugegir, but in B2B space, right there's. I'll give a shout out to Semrush.
They did a really good job in engaging with creators at scale. And this is how you get massive roi.
Verity Hurd [00:12:29]:
That's really interesting around because I imagine, like, with platforms that they're established on, let's take Instagram and TikTok, thinking about sort of like the D2C space, particularly fashion, let's just keep going with that. And then a platform that they might want to test out next year. I can imagine that that whole giving that narrative over to the creator probably feels quite daunting, especially on a newer platform that they're testing out. What would be your advice? They've just got to let go.
Victoria Blinova [00:13:00]:
You know what? I struggle with letting go myself on a personal, professional level. So I hate that advice. So I'm going to try to frame it a bit better, maybe create a process that allows you to let go. So here it goes back to resourcing and investment. So if you don't have a full time, I'm not saying they have to be full time, but a person who has an influencer management project, for example, and it's not an afterthought after doing five campaigns, and then as an afterthought, let's give them this influencer. No, no, no. Think of it as, this is a massive project we're investing in this person. You know, we might not have a massive budget for this, but this person has a very clear okr, or KPI, whatever we call it, objective.
And we're gonna create a process for that person. So maybe on Mondays they reach out to the creators. On Tuesdays they cheque on the deals signed, On Wednesdays they approve the creatives. On Thursdays, they all go live. So that way you have a. Like. Just like we have with almost any other process of uploading content, or what is it, let's say, expensing our costs accounting. We have processes for everything.
A very strong process for influencer marketing. This is when all of a sudden becomes very easy to let go because you're not constantly stressed about, oh, what will that creator say? No, you know, that on Wednesday you're going to review their content, on Thursday they're going to go live and you have this very smooth mechanism and all of a sudden you have the time to give them creativity, but also to give yourself peace.
Verity Hurd [00:14:33]:
I'm hearing like long form is making a comeback, even like podcast isn't, you know, they're not going anywhere. But that feels like such a big shift in attention spans because we, you know, three seconds seem to be like too long, not that long ago.
Lia Haberman [00:14:50]:
Listen, I don't think audiences are done with short form necessarily. I think a lot of this push for a return to longer form is coming more from the brand and creator side. I think people have seen that short form, very hard to build loyalty, develop ip, stand out in, you know, when people are kind of constantly scrolling, whether it's reels or TikToks or shorts. I think a lot of creators and brands and social managers and marketers are seeing that, like, it's very hard to form those deeper relationships through short form video. Great for capturing attention, not so great for maybe keeping attention or converting that attention into something else.
So I think it's going to be a kind of a charge led by probably more creators and brands in looking at, okay, what is something that we can develop these deeper relationships. And I love that you said podcasts, because I was just thinking about it last night. You look at John ushai, who's a YouTuber and he does these great interviews and he just talked to Casey Neistat, who's another kind of OG YouTuber, and it was a two hour conversation.
I was watching it last night and I gotta admit, I did play it on 2x6 because I was like, it's two hours. Like, I don't have two hours to sit here. But like, I did want to hear this interview. And so, you know, and then there was like Joe Rogan and he talked to Trump for three hours, which again, like, I, I can't fathom listening to three hours. But maybe if you're playing it on, you know, faster speed. But I do think that it kind of points to the, on the creator side, certainly they don't want to limit themselves, they want to go deep. Right. And so I think that's very interesting.
I think the fact that there is an audience, whether they're like me and you're watching it on like 1.5x or 2x or whatever, I think it's going to be whatever is not short form. So that might be photos, it might be carousels. We know that Instagram just Increased their carousels up to like 20, you know, photos or videos. So kind of like a more. And I'm calling that swipe left, swipe storytelling, not a photo dump. I. I would stop thinking of the carousel as a photo dump and really think about it as a storytelling opportunity. Just.
It's kind of almost like photojournalism in terms of, you know, what the story you're able to tell when people are going through a carousel Podcast mid form, long form. One other thing too, and, you know, I'm not the only one championing this, but I do feel like I keep talking about it and I want other people to take it and run with it. Pinterest brought out collages. They did it. They actually did it in 2022. They had an app called Shuffles, which is kind of like a spinoff app. They brought out Shuffles and Shuffles still exists, but they've reincorporated parts of Shovels back into Pinterest with these collages. They've done partnerships with Nike that saw really great performance through this collage campaign.
They just released something with Maybelline, which was, again, I think they were doing. Oh, what was it called? Collage Remixes. That was it. So maybe did like a campaign which was like a collage remix. And I think that this is really interesting. I think it speaks to. It's very different from, I don't know, like five years. I can't remember whenever Marie Kondo was kind of that era of like, minimalism and paring things down.
And this is like an abundance of things that you love, all kind of crammed and curated together. And the re. One of the reasons, and you know that I'm. I keep going on and on about it is like, not only is Pinterest. Pinterest is growing with Gen Z, Gen Z is the highest user of collages. They create more collages than anybody else. Instagram recently we saw, I think it was a beta test that nobody was supposed to see, but they put this notification popped up of, like, they are building a collage tool. Because we know when Instagram sees something that somebody else is doing and it's working successfully, they were going to be very quick to jump on that.
So Instagram's testing it. Amazon just came out with collages for their creators. So the creator storefronts in the Amazon Influencer programme. And so they actually just rolled out a tool as well. So I think, again, we're not done with short form necessarily, but I do think people are going to be looking for opportunities to do these other things and kind of create, I don't know, more meaningful, kind of like in depth type. And that really resonates with people.
Paul Archer [00:19:13]:
That was another episode of Building Brand Advocacy, the world's top brand building podcast. To find out more about Building Brand Advocacy and how this podcast is part of a bigger plan for our Brand Building Cookbook, then make sure to search for Building Brand Advocacy in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or anywhere else that podcasts are fine. And make sure that you click subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. Thanks to Juul for sponsoring. To find out more, go to www.duel tech. That's D U E L T E C H. And on behalf of the team here at Building Brand Advocacy, thanks for listening.
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