Carol McEvoy [00:00:00]:
There's nothing more moving in an event when people come up to you and say, I love working with you guys as a brand. And quite often it's not you guys as a brand, it's you guys. Which means that the people in the room from Symprove are doing their right job and they're putting off the right thing. And there's no disingenuous there at all. It's like people are there for a reason. And then it just makes me emotional like, that these people are here, we've helped them, and they want to share their stories. So then that's the key thing for me is like, just let people share their stories as best they can.
Paul Archer [00:00:39]:
Have you ever wondered why some brands grow exponentially, building legions of passionate fans that live and die by their logos and some, well, don't. I do all the time, and that's probably because I'm a massive brand nerd. But I believe there's a secret sauce at the core of every remarkable brand. A formula that sparks the growth of passionate communities, of superfans, building a business and a reputation that will last for years to come. My name is Paul Archer and I'm a specialist in brand advocacy at Word of Mouth, having consulted for hundreds of brands on a topic.
Verity Hurd [00:01:13]:
Hey, it's Verity here, your co host of the Building Brand Advocacy podcast.
Paul Archer [00:01:17]:
In this podcast, we tap into the greatest marketing minds in the world. They share the exact tactics and strategies used to build the world's greatest brands, dropping actionable insights every brand builder can apply.
Verity Hurd [00:01:29]:
We've got some incredible guests coming up, sharing insights and tips that can truly shift the marketing landscape. If you want to be the first to hear, make sure you hit that follow button. The more people following the show, the bigger and better we can make it. So if you're loving what you hear, don't forget to follow and spread the word. Thanks again for listening. It really means a lot. I. I hope you enjoy this next episode.
Paul Archer [00:01:52]:
It's time to learn and Build Brand Advocacy.
Verity Hurd [00:01:56]:
Hello and welcome to Building Brand Advocacy. Today, I am so excited to have with me the head of PR, Social and advocacy from Symprove. Welcome, Carol.
Carol McEvoy [00:02:06]:
Hello. Welcome.
Verity Hurd [00:02:07]:
Do you know what? I think you are one of the first people on the show to actually have advocacy in your job title. So I am super excited to dig in.
Carol McEvoy [00:02:15]:
No pressure, just like, is that the right reason? Should it be in there? Okay, fine. Let's do it.
Verity Hurd [00:02:20]:
I wanted to. Like I said, I want to really dig into advocacy. And I think me and you both know that advocacy is kind of a term that gets used maybe in the wrong way. Just kind of gets used in so many different ways. So, first of all, what does advocacy mean to you?
Carol McEvoy [00:02:35]:
It's interesting, isn't it? Because I think there are a few words that get bandied about all the time now. And I'd say advocacy and authenticity genuine are the ones that probably drive me demented. Yeah, not demented, but in the overuse and the not quite correct use of the word. I mean, if you strip it back to, you know, the definition of advocacy, which is public support for something, then that's always been at the core of SimProve throughout the whole funnel. And whether that's. It's people using the product and wanting to share it, that's what it boils down to. But I think certain areas will use it as a trendy word and think they're doing the right thing when it might not be the thing that sits for their business. Doesn't matter.
We don't all need to have advocacy at the core. Cause it makes kind of like almost like belittles when it's doing a true benefit.
Verity Hurd [00:03:25]:
Yeah.
Carol McEvoy [00:03:25]:
If that makes sense.
Verity Hurd [00:03:26]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it. You know, I've been. I did a post on it about how we're really diluting some of these keywords. You know, even community. I think people think that followers are community answering. You know, even just capture answering, like comments on Instagram and stuff is like how your community building. And it's just.
That's what I mean. It's just lost so much.
Carol McEvoy [00:03:45]:
Yeah. And I think the thing is that people. It gets used. I'm trying to think the right way to say it. Like. So as I said, it's like through all our funnel at Symprove. Like anybody who recommends Symprove is an advocate. Right.
And has the potential to drive advocacy for Symprove. But I think what happens is it. It becomes a different thing in different areas. So then there's a confusion, which is probably why it's not in many people's job titles. Because it's like, well, what does advocacy mean for each business is different. Do they just attribute it to the top voices that they work with? You know? Well, for us, it doesn't really matter. Anybody is an advocate for us, Whether it's a doctor recommending it to a dietitian she works with Betty sharing her experience with Helen, or, you know, a celebrity sharing it with a celebrity content creator sharing it for us on socials. That's.
It's all everywhere. And I think Not. Not many other brands probably can do that in the same way.
Verity Hurd [00:04:40]:
Yeah.
Carol McEvoy [00:04:40]:
Which is probably why it's in my title.
Verity Hurd [00:04:42]:
Yeah. How do you bring it to life in various ways.
Carol McEvoy [00:04:47]:
I mean, if you take advocacy on the internal side of simproove, everybody in the office is passionate about what our product does. Like we are very lucky and therefore it comes life there. So interviewing people, inevitably they say, I've used simpoove, I love it, it's brilliant. So you're right. Okay. That's one tick in the interview process and it stems from within. And we have an incredible customer care team who hear points of advocacy all day long. I get a lot of them obviously through PR and social, but when that's coming into you, it's very hard not to continually embrace it and share it with everybody.
So we have like customers messaging with life changing stories and it just gives you a warm feeling, which is what? Public support, Hence advocacy.
Verity Hurd [00:05:40]:
Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that. Like it starts from within.
Carol McEvoy [00:05:44]:
Yeah. And it is. And we are, you know, led by a founder who set up a product to help people. And when that continually comes in and that's the messages you get back all the time, it just reassures you that advocacy is at the heart of business and we're not jumping on a bandwagon, you know.
Verity Hurd [00:06:02]:
Yeah. This has been around.
Carol McEvoy [00:06:03]:
Yeah, yeah. It's been around in simproof since the beginning. Yeah, that's what we do. Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:06:09]:
I want to ask you, what is one practical way brands can educate their teams on the real value of advocacy?
Carol McEvoy [00:06:17]:
So interestingly, I had a chat with an international influencer agency last week and one thing he said to me, he said, oh, that's really forward thinking of you as a brand. And I was like, okay. And what he. Which really shocked me, I said, are you actually sure you mean that? And he, what he meant was, I said, oh, we always ask people who want to work with us like, so if it's a content creator, doctor dietitian, ambassador level person that they try the product first. And I don't think many brands do that.
Verity Hurd [00:06:50]:
No.
Carol McEvoy [00:06:51]:
And it's really fundamental to me and the team that people who work with us are genuine fans. I think the guy was shocked because he was like, not many brands do that and it would be okay, we'll gift it and can you post? We gift. If you post, you post. It's on you because it's such a personal product and that might be the key differentiator, that we are a very different product than anything else. Not anything else out there because we're in the health and wellness space. There's plenty of supplements out there, but it's not a dress and it's not a lipstick and it's not a quickly try it, see what you think. Okay, we can work together is you've got to take time so we have to be prepared to invest in that. But it was just the way he said it was forward thinking and I went to me, it's not.
It's just the way we've always operated and it's kind of like guardians of the brand really that you're only going to work with genuine people.
Verity Hurd [00:07:43]:
Yeah. I suppose you're right with your space. Like you do have to give them time to see how it works for them. But from a gifting point of view, you know, we talk a lot about, you know, some of the principles within advocacy and it is about being generous and whether that is with your, you know, your product, when you can. I appreciate that it's not always possible for every brand to do it, but we do say, you know, get your products out there as much as possible.
Carol McEvoy [00:08:07]:
But I don't know how you can expect a genuine. Now I said it's one of the words. I don't particularly like connection with people you work with without it because it's the classic, you know, you don't give to receive. Like Christmas time.
Verity Hurd [00:08:22]:
Yeah, exactly.
Carol McEvoy [00:08:23]:
But it will come back.
Verity Hurd [00:08:24]:
Yeah.
Carol McEvoy [00:08:25]:
And it's a long game really, particularly with our product that it's not necessarily somebody we gifted a year ago might go quiet and then come back and go, actually I loved it. Try again. Customer might have a break and then realise that actually they want to be back on it. So it's that, it's just.
Verity Hurd [00:08:41]:
Yeah.
Carol McEvoy [00:08:42]:
Being sincere.
Verity Hurd [00:08:42]:
Yeah.
Carol McEvoy [00:08:43]:
At the heart of what you're gifting is as well.
Verity Hurd [00:08:45]:
Yeah. And like I said, it's not just being generous with the product, it's with your time. Anything that you can possibly be generous, especially to those customers that give back to you as well. Like you've got to keep.
Carol McEvoy [00:08:54]:
Yeah. We have like our customer team are, you know, most like places you get a call centre, it's like, okay, right off the phone now. There's been none of that. And I've been at Simprove for a while and we can talk to a customer for 10, 15 minutes. Not. Don't bite an eyelid. They want to ring and talk to us, that's fine. That's what we're there for.
Because we are operating in a space where people do Want to talk. People are a bit embarrassed sometimes to share their gut health conditions or problems, or just generally want to have a chat about it. And we don't differentiate between talking to Betty. I always reference Betty. She's like, become a person in my life or Helen or a doctor. It's like, we've got time for everybody because the product deserves it and the person deserves that.
Verity Hurd [00:09:37]:
Okay, so in your career, has there ever been a standout moment where you thought this is exactly what advocacy should look like?
Carol McEvoy [00:09:44]:
So I think for me, it still happens now. I think it's when people go above and beyond. So we've got many channels that we operate in with our advocates, so who they are. But I think it comes back to when you hear, oh, somebody told me about that, you know, you think, okay, that's it, it's done. My daughter messaged me from flat. She was staying in New Year's Eve. Mom, it's all in the fridge here. You know, her friend's just started dating again.
She said, oh, yeah, he heard about Symprove. And it's that. Cause it means it's doing its word of mouth job. And it's very. I mean, you know, occasionally it is like, oh, we saw it on telly or we saw it in the paper or we saw so and so reference it. But you know, more often than not it's like, oh, yeah, my neighbour told me about that. And you kind of think we're covering all levels. There's, you know, whether it's we saw Alexandra talk about it on the telly or, you know, Betty again told me that she got recommended it by her doctor.
You know, it's that. And that's just a. That's never gonna go away. So it's not one thing. It's like just the groundswell of constant word of mouth recommendation. And we've been at events where we've. I've been to lots of events with the founder and you don't ever know what an event's gonna turn into. Like where you're on a panel talking about stuff and Baz will genuinely be blown away by people who will come up to him and share their experience.
And you wouldn't get that in any other, you know, you wouldn't get that with a dress or a lipstick. You know, it's kind of. And then it just brings it back home as to what you're doing and why.
Verity Hurd [00:11:10]:
That's so true. You're right. Especially in the wellness space.
Carol McEvoy [00:11:13]:
Yeah. And it is. And you know, there's so Much in the wellness space. Right. And there's so many things out there, but I think. And you can get distracted by everything else going on and all the noise that other brands are making and competitors. But I think for us there's such passion within the business at the heart of it, knowing that the product works for people, that it's backed by science. That just makes you think, okay, don't get distracted by the shiny objects out there who seem to be doing it differently.
Yeah, you're actually the one who's got more people coming up to you saying so and so recommended it to me.
Verity Hurd [00:11:46]:
Yeah.
Carol McEvoy [00:11:46]:
And that's the.
Verity Hurd [00:11:47]:
I love that answer. You know, I had some friends around on Saturday and you know, I was talking about you guys and another brand as well, and I just think it's, you know, I think.
Carol McEvoy [00:11:56]:
Who was the other brand?
Verity Hurd [00:11:57]:
Should I tell you?
Carol McEvoy [00:11:58]:
Yeah, always interested.
Verity Hurd [00:11:59]:
Free Soul.
Carol McEvoy [00:12:00]:
Oh, no, no, but that, but that thing. I mean, different kind of audience demographic. But I think what they're doing is similar ish. In like building community and really kind of, you know, I mean, they're riding away for the moment, let's say. I'd quite like to be Free Soul at the moment, but you know, hey ho.
Verity Hurd [00:12:16]:
Yeah, but you're right, it is different. But I think like it just, you know what I thought afterwards in the morning, I was like, I had my girls, my girls round and like just the way we were chatting about Symprove and free salt, you know, it was just, it's that I suppose every brand would want to be a fly on the wall in those situations just to.
Carol McEvoy [00:12:34]:
Try and next time you're having your dinner, we'll invite us around, then we'll just like mic you all up beforehand to see because it is that like we are quite lucky. Like we've had like from when we started and with working with advocates in the, you know, social space, as it were. It was a long game. Right. And it still is. But we now have like various communities everywhere. Like we've got a Facebook customer community, like supporters group and it' just brilliant. And they just chat amongst themselves.
They've got each other's back. If there's a difficult person in there, because inevitably there is, they'll all look after each other and it's really warm and it's kind of, you know, we're not quite at the Sweaty Betty buzz level, but we'd love to be there. But it's people just helping each other out and you kind of think that's what you want and Also it's giving people that space to talk about stuff like this. Like we recently did a campaign in the end of the year and we had ambassadors and customers talking on the sofa a bit like this with Susanna Constantine. And it was just really refreshing because everybody has a gut story. Right. And everybody should feel they can share it comfortably and not be embarrassed about it. Whereas I think back in the early days when I was at Symproved people would ring up and they'd talk for a long time, didn't have anywhere to go.
But now there's so much more noise around gut health knowing that it is okay yet people are still reluctant to talk about their gut health and some people still don't get the connect between looking after your gut and every other part of your health. You know and that's getting there more and more.
Verity Hurd [00:14:03]:
Yeah. I suppose you have to do a lot of educational content.
Carol McEvoy [00:14:06]:
Yeah. And that's really tricky for us because I say tricky it's not cause we've got some great healthcare professionals who will support us. So we are putting out the right content there and we're not ever gonna go put anything out that's controversial. We probably won't jump on trends because we can't we science backed. It's not that easy to do that diet. That's okay. Like I said before it's the bridal magazines, different colour, different month, that's all it is. But.
But I think we educate a lot around gut health and that's what we can do because we can't. The regs on supplements are so tight that we can't really just go out and say simplevis not allowed. You know it's kind of, I mean it make a cracking ad but probably not suitable if we blanked out everything we'd like to say. So it's informing people so that then on their journey they can find out various bits of information about gut health.
Verity Hurd [00:14:58]:
Yeah.
Carol McEvoy [00:14:59]:
And know there's communities there to support them.
Verity Hurd [00:15:01]:
Yeah. Okay. So you've already started to touch on it there but what are your go to strategies for turning your loyal customers into vocal advocates?
Carol McEvoy [00:15:11]:
So I think it would be. We give them time. So I think as I said before it's back to the gifting. It's like let people try the product. We don't really bombard them, we're not. You must do this, you must review this, you must do that because it has to come from then it's just we've got, we direct them to if they've got any questions so they can Go to our Facebook community. DMs on Instagram are always alight with questions about it and they ring customer. But we do direct them to trustpilot as well.
So they can see. Because there's quite often nervousness about trying a new product, particularly if you're in the like 1 in 5 bracket of people who have IBS, then you are nervous and you've tried things and you just, this is another thing to try and it's meant to do this but we can't tell you what it does because we're not allowed. So like we will direct them and support them as best as we can. It's time really.
Verity Hurd [00:15:59]:
Yeah.
Carol McEvoy [00:15:59]:
And like nurture those relationships like wherever they are.
Verity Hurd [00:16:03]:
And how do you. So I suppose once they are advocates, how, what are there any sort of like tactical steps that you do to keep them organically? Advocates?
Carol McEvoy [00:16:13]:
Yeah, I mean we do like. So on our Facebook group we have like regular check ins if you broke it down into the different type of people we work with. So with our content creators, we're very connected to them directly as opposed to platform led in terms of what they run for us. And it is always checking in. And you know, I keep banging on about the customer care team, but they're very good at remembering who they've spoken to. And I think it's just we employ passionate people who are good listeners who want to hear more, want to share more, want to remember those little moments in people's lives so that if they do ring up, that's what they remember. And it can be anybody. So it could be a customer, it could be a doctor we work with, it could be an ambassador or an influencer, it could be anybody.
But it's just remembering that and keeping true to them.
Verity Hurd [00:16:57]:
Yeah, yeah. I love that.
Carol McEvoy [00:16:59]:
I'm not the type of person who's a different person out of work. Right. So I treat everybody the same and I think most people are simply the same. Like you don't. It's not that you don't get special treatment because you do, because we're very supportive. But we look after people the same way we'd want to be looked after.
Verity Hurd [00:17:15]:
You know, is that a value within the, within the business?
Carol McEvoy [00:17:19]:
Yeah, definitely.
Verity Hurd [00:17:20]:
Yeah.
Carol McEvoy [00:17:20]:
And it's kind of. And we're open and honest and we kind of just want to support each other and know that at all times. So it's trying to not be protective over things. Let people know about the relationships you've got going on and how you can build them and like lean on each other more and more to support the customers that we've got.
Verity Hurd [00:17:39]:
Well, it kind of leads me onto where I want to go to next in terms of like, because I think when you look at your brand network, you've mentioned customers advocates, you've even mentioned, obviously employees like love, love the product. And I think now, you know, the brand network is so much bigger than what people used to think it was. You know, we've moved away from just working with like mega influencers and rely on them to kind of like get the message out. And I think that's how it's really evolved over sort of like the last three years maybe. Like where do you think it's heading next? Especially in sort of like the health and wellness space. As you said, it's getting noisier out there for you, isn't it?
Carol McEvoy [00:18:17]:
Yeah, I think, yeah. And as a brand like vying for share of voice in that space, you know, which is kind of like, oh, let's get measured. What should share a voice? I think it's crucial. You have to just like I said before about getting distracted, just stay true to your own brand, don't get distracted by the competition and own what you do. And we've kind of, I'd say over the past year like we've brought together various areas of advocacy in different formats. So we've might have brought affiliates into an event with creators, into an event with journalists. And what's just exciting to see is the passion for the product that's there and you know, and the feedback we get from those like, I mean they're not quite community style events but they are, has just been really like heartwarming and you think, okay, this is what people want. They do want to be in touch with the brand because you might get some agencies out there who lead you to believe that their talent don't want to talk to you.
And if that's the case then, sorry, we don't want to talk to you. And that's not true. You know, it's kind of like if you invest in them and look after them and I think it's back to just don't overcomplicate it. You know, it's like, remember you're dealing with people at the end of the day and I think we've got tendency to go a bit in the world of AI, a bit automatic about everything. And everything has a channel, everything has an roi, everything has this. And it's like you're still, we are dealing with people with guts and that's what we need to remember.
Verity Hurd [00:19:49]:
Yeah. And it's, you know, we are shifting as consumers. You know, it's not passive, you know, consumption anymore. We want to kind of, you know, we want to be involved. We want to, you know, sort of. We don't just, I suppose in the, in the true sense of advocacy, we want to advocate with a brand now, not just for them.
Carol McEvoy [00:20:06]:
Yeah, I mean, we've had. I think the key thing is going to be about. It's the channel diversification across advocacy. That is the exciting point that you could look at. And I think like on that we've had a few. Like I mentioned that event before where it was a bit. Everybody's doing events on social. Right.
Don't get me wrong. And they're brilliant and they drive noise and they drive traffic and they drive interest. But I think there's nothing more moving in an event when people come up to you and say, I love working with you guys as a brand. And quite often it's not you guys as a brand, it's you guys. Which means that the people in the room from simproof are doing their right job and they're putting off the right thing. And there's no, there's no disingenuous there at all. It's like people are there for a reason. And I kind of.
I been with Simper for a while and I still in the room like that. If I have to get up and do the intro talk, I still get excited, get nervous, obviously, because public speaking, nobody really likes that. And then it just makes me emotional like that these people are here, we've helped them and they want to share their stories. So then that's the key thing for me is like, just let people share their stories as best they can. Now with our supplement, they can't. But the people we work with tend to get creative around it and do the best they can.
Verity Hurd [00:21:25]:
Yeah, but you're kind of giving your narrative to someone else. Right. You're allowing them to kind of tell your brand story in their way, if that makes sense.
Carol McEvoy [00:21:34]:
I mean, we're not a dictatorial brand in terms of a brief. So every month there's options for people to do that will align to. This is in terms of specifically influencers that we're working with, content creators and it's up to them what's gonna work for their community. We don't know their community the way they do. Most of their communities have seen their uses improve because that's generally the only reason we're working with them. And it has to Be on them. So we give them options. We're not ever going to be a skyglass or, I mean, other brands are available, but because we can't do that because it's so different and so personal.
So we've worked with, when we originally launched, like working with influencers and then it's spread out to affiliates, member, get member programmes, customers recommending. We had three people and it was, it was a gamble, you know, this was like early days. And I remember the CEO at the time being like, oh, Carol, okay. And I was like, that's just, trust me, let's have a go. I've worked these three people I've picked specifically because I know they're massive fans. We still work with them now, like they're still in the crew. And I think they've been like eight years, seven years working with us. And, you know, don't get me wrong, they do get approached by the brands, but they won't do it.
And it's not because of me. I mean, maybe a little bit of me. It'd be quite nice, wouldn't it? It's because of the product, you know, and so it speaks for itself and that's why we give them time to try it and then it will evolve from there, you know, so there's a phrase, you know, we kind of say it's efficacy through advocacy, but it could be advocacy through efficacy. Either way it works. It's kind of. They're speaking about it because we have an efficacious product and then they're advocates because it's been efficacious for them.
Verity Hurd [00:23:14]:
I love that.
Carol McEvoy [00:23:15]:
Yeah, a lot of words there.
Verity Hurd [00:23:16]:
Yeah. You kind of. Again, you touched on it slightly about measuring advocacy and Been in my life. Yeah.
Carol McEvoy [00:23:23]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:23:23]:
How?
Carol McEvoy [00:23:24]:
Yeah. I don't want to measure it ever. You ask anybody in our slt, Carol doesn't like to measure it, but then I can, I can tell you. It's just. I think the tricky thing is, is the advocacy is very mixed up with influencer world, isn't it? So I think there might be people who have an influencer role and they're called an advocacy thing. And it's not the same thing, you know, but if you just took the measurement of advocacy is based on sentiment and sharing those key community moments, those key reviews you get that just for us, just come in so regularly that it just keeps the efficacy through advocacy alive that we know. So it's not there, won't ever be. Here's a target you've got to hit for advocacy.
I Mean, somebody somewhere will work one out for me, I'm sure at some point and I'll have to learn a formula, but it's not what I do. But I'll give it a go. Have you. Maybe we need to do that. But it's again, it's the. When you dig into the tracking of sentiment. Right, Great idea. All the tools in the world out there to help you do it, track engagement.
Great. All the tools in the world out there to do it. But everybody does engagement and sentiment different. So there is no one star or whatever you'd say to do it. Because, like, for us, engagement is not just engagement on our content, it's when our voices or our customers share an experience somewhere that we're there to back that up. So if there's then a follow on question, we're there to support them. And that's why I think it's really tricky. It's like sentiment generally is positive, but then you get one negative that could bring you down, but the negative comment might not then factor in the fact that you've responded to it and resolved it.
So I think it's quite a complicated system.
Verity Hurd [00:25:05]:
Yeah, hugely.
Carol McEvoy [00:25:05]:
I'll get my head of insights on that. She can tell me how to get a brand advocacy score in the mix. Or you could just send me yours later and I'll adapt it.
Verity Hurd [00:25:13]:
No, we'll definitely chat about the score, but I just know that I think in some way, like advocacy, there are ways, like you said, it can be measurable. But I think the biggest thing with advocacy is how scalable it is.
Carol McEvoy [00:25:28]:
Yeah, it's interesting because it is definitely scalable in various areas. So we've got, you know, I think healthcare professionals recommending us. We've got a member get member programme, we've got affiliates, we've got influence and then we've got ambassadors. Right. And as well as we've got our internal crew who will you'll be recommending it to people you meet. I mean, I'm slightly cult, like my husband said when I first started working there, but now he's an avid fan, so it works. He just, you know, persists. And I think to scale it is a challenge when you still need people to try it and know that they like it.
I think it's not a simple put it out there and see what happens. Because we don't want that because we want to support people who are trying it. And that's the reason it took a long time for the product to get to market was because the founder was not Just gonna put it out there. I mean lots of supplements do just get out there. Made in a kitchen sink or something. But he wanted the science behind it, so we had the backing of scientists. And I think that makes the scaling thing tricky and like, you know, there are platforms out there and all that and channel diversification will be key, but it will be a build for us in the right way.
Verity Hurd [00:26:46]:
Yeah, I think this is the, this is where people go wrong with advocacy though. Because we know there's brands out there. You guys are living by it, that, you know, it's not the short, not, it's not the short term hacks. And I think, you know, so many brands, they want to just turn it on overnight. It's not an overnight success. But you know, you guys are living proof that, you know, when you treat it like a long term strategy, you know, it's not just, you know, I.
Carol McEvoy [00:27:10]:
Think also it's, I think we, when we spoke before about this, I said it's, it's annoying to like I say we try not to get distracted by competitors. But it's not even just competitors. It's like when people put asks out for brands they want to work. You know, I'm like, come on, like, think about how that reflects on your talent. Or have you tried the product? No. Have you got any interest in the product? No. I don't know who you are. Okay, brilliant.
So no, I'm not gonna work with you. And that filters through. Then it kind of, you know, it can affect everything because just back to measuring and scaling. I think the one key area that we get excited about is engagement. And people like might talk about engagement from a, like I said before about what you're interacting with. But for us, like from an internal point, it's like there's nothing more powerful than like when we've done an event and influencers have messaged us separately, like whether it's a WhatsApp to say how they appreciated it and then it's engaging back with them. Or we send them a brief. Like I said, we like to give mixed brief and they get excited and come back say, oh, I've got this great idea.
Or they say, can you help me out? I've posted something, my DMs have lit up. I don't know what to answer. Or somebody's gone to the doctor and they've said, I don't know how to answer that question. Can you help me out? So it's a plethora, I mean, love to be able to map it out and Measure it all. But at some point that will happen. But it is challenging.
Verity Hurd [00:28:26]:
There's got to be, there's got to be a way in the future for us to be able to do that.
Carol McEvoy [00:28:31]:
Yeah, there will be. And I think as you, it's the hard thing, like it's improve, you know, we're growing and it's brilliant and it's dead exciting. So it's like making sure you take stock of what you've got going. That's the good things that you can keep going. At the same time it's like parallel tracking on a lot of stuff. Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:28:47]:
Okay, let's look ahead a little bit again. So exciting. If you could predict one major shift in how brands approach advocacy and social media in the next few years, what do you think it would be?
Carol McEvoy [00:28:59]:
So number one, I think five years is a mentally long time. Yeah, like, like just, I can't even think about that. Like I can't even get to the end of the year. I think it's. Consider the crossover. So I think advocacy across the full funnel. Don't really differentiate between your audiences in terms of, don't treat them differently is what I mean. I think I've said that a few times that you know, a customer's as important as a sports star or whoever's using you.
It doesn't really matter who you are. I think a lot will evolve within platform use this year and it's kind of like paid and organic work. Need to work in alliance across it. So you're singing the same thing, corporate words. And I think that's, that's where it's getting a bit blurred, like you know, between creative concepts that are shared for advocacy based ideas. UGC content is not really the UGC content it was if we're honest because everybody could make money out of it.
Verity Hurd [00:29:57]:
So there's a thing between sort of like UGC and staged UGC now.
Carol McEvoy [00:30:01]:
Yeah. I just don't think UGC exists in the same way anymore. You know, I mean we get, we do get comments in and we do get people sharing without any impact. But it's not the UGC that the world expects to see. Like the world expects to see. But then sometimes if you polish it too much, it's just not quite right either. You know, it's. That balance is going to be tricky, I think.
But I think there'll be a bit of blurred lines. Yeah, I can't get to five years, I'm afraid. I've just got no idea.
Verity Hurd [00:30:28]:
No, I know. I sort of like when, you know, that's why I kind of was like a few years. Because five years is just, just. Yeah. We don't even know what's going to happen in 90 days with no TikTok.
Carol McEvoy [00:30:37]:
Yeah, exactly. But I think for us it will be. It's. It's like don't differentiate all your voices, all your advocates have a voice. Don't focus on one area of them more than the other. And. And we've never done that. And I think it would just be.
That will be our scaling secret is like scaling all the different areas of advocacy within the business and focus on what we're doing and doing it more.
Verity Hurd [00:30:59]:
Just in terms of your role. So your pr, social and advocacy rumour has it.
Carol McEvoy [00:31:04]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:31:05]:
I mean they're three pretty big. I mean they're individual jobs. Right. Full time. So how. Just how does your day to day look or week to week?
Carol McEvoy [00:31:15]:
I just generally wouldn't have a clue. Like. No, no. Do you know what? It's really exciting. I have to say. We're a really good team. We have a big marketing department and my roles evolve from. I keep going back to when I was there.
I gotta sound like I'm like, I have 60 odd and it grew and it's natural that these areas sit together. But we have a lot of crossover with other teams. We've got really strong people leading the way on PR and also pr. CR crosses over into the influencer stuff that we do, into advocacy, crosses over into the social so they merge nicely. But no week is the same and I quite like that. For me, it allows my creative brain to just have fun at work and kind of share the messages and just like push them into whichever relevant.
Verity Hurd [00:32:03]:
Yeah.
Carol McEvoy [00:32:03]:
One I pick that day.
Verity Hurd [00:32:04]:
Yeah, that's so true. Because I suppose there's no kind of like 50 of my time is spent on this and no, you know, it's.
Carol McEvoy [00:32:10]:
All it probably needs to be. I think my kind of bosses would say, right, you need to kind of like focus on that project that you meant to have been done a while ago. I want to get involved in that instead.
Verity Hurd [00:32:20]:
There's too many things going on in our industry.
Carol McEvoy [00:32:22]:
There's just a lot of crossover. I think that's the thing and it's sort of. And it's a bit back to what I said before about paid and organic blurring lines and crossover. And I think with so many brands using recognisable faces, that's where the blur's tricky. And I think for me that's where the focus needs to be on. It's like retaining advocates is a key thing for me is like not letting them be distracted by bigger bucks. The bigger brands have, but generally that doesn't happen with us.
Verity Hurd [00:32:51]:
I wanted to ask, how do we. Is something around getting more like advocacy in job titles? Like why, why, why is. Why is it not.
Carol McEvoy [00:33:00]:
No, it's interesting because here's the thing, right? So if I was looking for a job, let's just say advocacy means different things to so many different people. And I think it's come about in SimProve because it covers those various areas so, you know, customers, doctors, so it makes sense to bring it all together. Whereas there aren't many other brands that would have that, you know, if they're bigger, they're not going to have somebody that could sit across all those areas. So I think it will be tricky and I think it's tricky to remember that at the core of an advocacy role is the ability to build relationships. I mean, you know, it's not a hard skill, it's an epic skill, apparently. And I think that's why it's probably not put in titles because it's, you know, then how. What are you going to write in a job description? You know, in the world we're in, people like really clear definitions of things, whereas I'm quite like the fluid definition. Like instead of thinking about how can I change my job title to not be so wordy, you know, like you hear about other companies.
Like I remember somebody a creative agency worked with called Head of Special Ops and I thought, I love that, brilliant. Oh, but it's not easy, It's a bit. And then I thought, you know, advocacy is. Just covers a lot of the stuff we do. So it's like, I don't know how you'd get it into more places because lots other brands are very either performance driven. So then it is an influencer one. So they're very going to be data, data, data. And then that advocacy wouldn't quite sit with that data element because I don't know how much of a relationship you're building with the people you're working with.
Whereas, I mean, there are brands out there that it would work with, but I'm just not sure how it could evolve. But maybe if you've got your brand score, your brand advocacy score, that'll be. It'll filter out from there, hopefully. And I think your brands should be looking at that, you know, because it's important that your brand is being recommended by people who are genuine fans, which is true advocacy. It's Probably a more blur with the PR world than with. Oh, no, just blurring with the social world as well. It's just a blur.
Verity Hurd [00:35:03]:
Carol, what do you think brands get wrong when it comes to building brand advocacy?
Carol McEvoy [00:35:07]:
Oh, no, you see, this is the one that gets my goat, not the question itself. I think I've posted a few times on a certain platform. I see so many people posting, asking, or, I've got new creators, they'd be great to work with you, or I've got a campaign, hit me up with your creators. And it's just lazy. Right. And I think you don't get genuine advocates for your brand through being lazy. It's a slippy slope which will affect the brand eventually. Because I think the one thing I'm really proud of our team and the business is that anybody can talk to most of our agencies we work with and they'll know who they are and they'll know what's going on and they'll know who we're working with via that agency.
And it's just really key. And those relationships then make that. It's much easier for us to go back to. Like, there's an agency we work with and we've been able to go back to them last minute and say, look, we really need this help. Can you do it? And it does. It's not a problem. And they've also been able to come to us and say, look, we've got this great person because they know what we're looking for now. So I think it's the laziness, people not putting the time in to really find out about them.
And even when you look at content creators, right, it's finding out what makes their communities tick. Don't presume what you think makes people tick is what makes their community tick. And it is just back to people being lazy.
Verity Hurd [00:36:26]:
No, I. 100%, and I love that answer. I don't think we've had an answer, but it's so true. You know, we say it here like there's no shortcut to this. And like I said, like, people do. It is. It is lazy.
Carol McEvoy [00:36:40]:
Yeah. It's even down to, you know, like, there are God knows how many platforms out there, right, that could help you find voices, find people to work with. But what. But you can't just do that. Well, we can't. But even if I was working for a fashion outlet, I'd still want to do due diligence on that. You know, don't take the lazy option because you will find some gems, you know, and I think it is. Yeah, it's a big bugbear of mine.
Like every time I see a post saying I got a great new whatever, I have to restrict myself from posting a lot of the time and probably be banned.
Verity Hurd [00:37:12]:
But she does post on LinkedIn. If you want to see those rants.
Carol McEvoy [00:37:16]:
Go for a rant.
Verity Hurd [00:37:18]:
Carol, this has been brilliant. Thank you so much. I love digging into the world of advocacy.
Carol McEvoy [00:37:23]:
Thank you.
Paul Archer [00:37:25]:
That was another episode of Building Brand Advocacy, the world's top brand building podcast. To find out more about Building Brand Advocacy and how this podcast is part of a bigger plan for our Brand building cookbook, then make sure to search for Building Brand Advocacy in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or anywhere else that podcasts are fine. And make sure that you click subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. Thanks to Juul for sponsoring. To find out more, go to www.dual.tech. that's D U E L dot T ech. And on behalf of the team here at Building Brand Advocacy, thanks for listening.
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