Why do polished brands stall, while real ones build Advocacy?

Because today’s consumers don’t want perfection. They want proof. 

This week, Erica Cocilova (Chief Executive Officer @ Ethique Beauty) joins Verity in New York to unpack why substance, imperfection, and product obsession are the future of brand building. From rebrands & B Corp audits to salon takeovers that win over skeptics, Erica’s approach proves brand trust isn’t bought – it’s built. 

Solid product, transparent leadership, and customer service that actually puts you in contact with the CEO? They’re the building blocks to scaling with integrity. 

Rethink what brand love looks like, as you learn…

 

• How To Build Advocacy Through Service, Beyond Storytelling: Every customer DM, email, and piece of outreach gets a reply; and it’s personal. Real care builds real loyalty. It’s about accountability, not automation, when you build Advocacy this way.

 

• Ways To Turn IRL Conversations Into Scalable Content: From salon takeovers to consumer-led debates on hair washing habits, Erica shares how small, real-world moments are fuelling content that converts – and creating better educated, enthusiastic Advocates in the process.

 

• How To Audit Your Brand’s True Impact: Erica’s first move at Ethique was to strip back 20+ sustainability claims and anchor the brand to one: eliminating plastic. Learn how to run an impact audit that narrows focus, sharpens storytelling, and guides strategy.

 

• Advice For Taking Bold, Human Decisions In Public: Erica and her team didn’t hide behind the rebrand, they fronted it. Blogs, open Slack huddles; even customer support tickets answered by the CFO. Transparency isn’t a ‘for the sake of it’ tactic for Ethique, but is part of the team’s culture.

 

• Why Bridging Purpose & Product Should Be Seamless: Ethique’s haircare bars aren’t sustainable in spite of their format – they’re better because of it. Function & mission shouldn’t compete. They should compound.

 

This is what it sounds like when a brand listens, adapts, and leads without losing its soul.

 

Rate & review Building Brand Advocacy:

Apple Podcasts

Spotify

 

Connect with Erica:

Via her team @ Ethique

Via Ethique’s Instagram

 

 

Erica Cocilova [00:00:00]:

People walk in and look me straight in the face and go, don't know why I'm here. I don't think this is going to work for my hair. And I'm like, amazing. I'm so happy. Can you please say that? Like, now can we record you saying you don't think it's going to work? Because wait until you see and feel what your hair feels like after just one of this. Right? And we didn't do product in the hair after it was shampoo and conditioner. And the way people's faces change when they're like, oh, my. What? I can't believe it.

 

And I'm like, yeah. And now you have three bottles of the equivalent of three bottles of shampoo and the equivalent of five bottles conditioner in your shower on a tray. Go for it. It's like a light bulb switches on what's possible, which is such a cool paradigm shift.

 

Paul Archer [00:00:51]:

Have you ever wondered why some brands grow exponentially, building legions of passionate fans that live and die by their logos and some. Well, don't. I do all the time, and that's probably because I'm a massive brand nerd. But I believe there's a secret sauce at the core of every remarkable brand. A formula that sparks the growth of passionate communities, of superfans, building a business and a reputation that will last forever for years to come. My name is Paul Archer and I'm a specialist in brand advocacy and word of mouth, having consulted for hundreds of brands on a topic.

 

Verity Hurd [00:01:25]:

Hey, it's Verity here, your co-host of the Building Brand Advocacy podcast.

 

Paul Archer [00:01:29]:

In this podcast, we tap into the greatest marketing minds in the world. They share the exact tactics and strategies used to build the world's greatest brands. Dropping actionable insights every brand builder can apply.

 

Verity Hurd [00:01:41]:

We've got some incredible guests coming up, sharing insights and tips that can truly shift the marketing landscape. If you want to be the first to hear, make sure you hit that follow button. The more people following the show, the bigger and better we can make it. So if you're loving what you hear, don't forget to follow and spread the word. Thanks again for listening. It really means a lot. I hope you enjoy this next episode.

 

Paul Archer [00:02:04]:

It's time to learn and Build Brand Advocacy.

 

Verity Hurd [00:02:08]:

Hello and welcome to Building Brand Advocacy. Today. I'm super excited. We're in New York and I am chatting to the wonderful Erica, the CEO of Ethique Beauty. Welcome, Erica.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:02:18]:

Thank you for having me.

 

Verity Hurd [00:02:19]:

Oh, absolute pleasure. I'm so excited to chat to you today, especially about the brand and everything that you guys are doing and standing for. But do you want to just give us a little bit of an intro?

 

Erica Cocilova [00:02:26]:

Sure, sure. My name is Erica Cocilova. I am the CEO of Ethique Beauty. I came to this brand because I was so inspired by what. What we were doing. So the brand had been around for about 10 years before I was introduced, and we are a fully separate, solid hair care and personal care business. So what does that mean? It means literally, solid, waterless shapes that you could use in the shower, on your hair, on your face, on your body. We also have deodorant and a really beautiful platform for something that's really unique, I think, right now, which is that it's super, super efficacious.

 

But also built into it is the clean, ethical, sustainable standards that we really, really drive our mission.

 

Verity Hurd [00:03:07]:

Yeah, and that's exactly what I kind of want to dig into right now, because I think sustainability, the word is a bit of a buzzword along with community, authenticity, all those other ones. But, you know, you guys really talk the walk. So I suppose, first of all, why do you think so many brands struggle to talk on purpose and get this right?

 

Erica Cocilova [00:03:30]:

Yeah, I think if you. If you think about the landscape. Right. I think the reason why it's so difficult is that consumers, for whatever reason, at this point in our history, history. Have been sort of disproportionately trained to think about their sustainable brands, and they do all things sustainably. And maybe you have to trade off on the experience or what it does for you for it, or the efficacy in any way. And then there's the really, really good, powerful, exciting, fun brands like we'll talk beauty specifically, and there's this dichotomy. And I think it gets really confusing for brands because they want to talk all the great things that they do, assuming they do all those great things.

 

But consumers sometimes aren't really attracted to that as a purchase decision. Right. And then when you have these super efficacious, fun, interesting, it's hard to mix that messaging in because what they ultimately offer as a product might not be considered straight up as a sustainable product. So it's hard, right, because you're on these two camps. I think what we do differently, which is why this is so exciting to me, is I come from a background of personal care, hair care. I've been in really good hair care for a while now, and this product surprised me because the first thing I thought about it when it was sent to me when I was doing my interviewing was, is it good?

 

Verity Hurd [00:04:47]:

Yeah.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:04:48]:

Is it good. Does it work? Because if it doesn't, nobody is going to trade down on that. Right. No one's going to say, okay, it's okay, but I'm saving eight bottles from landfill. They want something that's a really unique, really efficacious product. That's right. For their hair type. Hair type, texture and need.

 

Right. And we're doing that. We're sort of flipping the narrative to say this is something for you that you can be so excited about because it's really going to transform your hair from the inside out with all of the clean benefits that we have. And then you can also feel good about it on the back end because this is what we offer you. But then this is what we do on the back end.

 

Verity Hurd [00:05:24]:

Yeah, I love that. And your hair looks gorgeous.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:05:27]:

Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Of course, brought to you by, I.

 

Verity Hurd [00:05:30]:

Mean, hair care is such a personal thing, especially now because it's not just hair, it's your scalp and everything. And it's. It's become such a big category, hasn't it? Yeah. And I suppose in terms of like scaling the brand without diluting the sustainability part of it, what systems or disciplines have you used?

 

Erica Cocilova [00:05:51]:

It's a great question. I've. So I've been to Teak now for two years and so the first year that I got here, we basically audited everything. We did. And I know that sounds silly because it sounds so tactical, but I think that's a little bit of where sometimes the most sustainable brands can kind of get a little muddy and any brand can. Right. They have so many messages. They don't know what to say.

 

They don't know what's that important to a consumer. And so they sort of do and say too much.

 

Verity Hurd [00:06:16]:

Yeah.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:06:16]:

And so the first thing I did when I got here is I went to New Zealand. We are manufactured completely in New Zealand. Super clean brand. Been around for a while. They'd been around for 10 years when I got here and I did some store visits. Right. Of course you go to the factory, you go to this. But I went to the store visits and when I got to the shelf at one of our largest sets, it was an independent pharmacy, I got to the shelf, we had this beautiful like 6 foot section of all these products.

 

We used to have a lot, a lot of products. And across the top we had this great real estate. You never get good real estate in retail. And we had this beautiful banner and it had our logo really small at the top and then about 20 seals. 20, like eco specific Sustainability seals across the entire banner. And that messaging is amazing. We were doing all of those things, but I thought to myself, that's what we do, that's about us. How do we figure out which of these 20 things is super important? Which ones do we do the best? And then really, how do we make sure that a consumer knows when they get to the shelf or they get to our website or they get to anywhere where we exist, what's right for them so they feel comfortable investing in a sustainable brand.

 

And so the first thing we did is an audit. We said like, how do we know all these things we're doing? Are they moving the needle? Can we do them really well? Do they ladder up to the one singular thing that we do best, which is eliminating plastic? And how do consumers feel about all of these things? And I think just that practise of doing that and not doing less, but focusing on less, doing bigger, better, I think is something that I learned in my background a long time ago that's really been not just a consumer facing thing, but ultimately in a business, how you drive it forward without diluting your message.

 

Verity Hurd [00:07:59]:

Yeah, we're seeing a lot more brands do that now. I think, you know, especially new emerging brands, they're really kind of taking that approach and, and it's feeling like marketing in general has become a lot cleaner. The ones that are getting it right.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:08:11]:

I couldn't agree with you more. I came from a background, a large, large brand. I worked on the Dove business at Unilever and they were militant on this is what we stand for, this is what our products have to do in terms of performance. And, and it's all about moisture, moisture, moisture. That was the story. And if you didn't deliver on that from a product perspective, which is first and foremost the most important thing, and then if you aren't delivering on that message from a consumer standpoint, showing, not telling all those things, you didn't pass the gates, you didn't keep going. And it just taught me so much about being really clear. Yeah, being really clear.

 

Verity Hurd [00:08:46]:

Obviously. B Corp.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:08:48]:

Yes.

 

Verity Hurd [00:08:48]:

Yeah, I mean, I'm just intrigued in terms of what that certification looks like on the inside on like a day to day basis.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:08:55]:

Thank you so much for asking that question because I think B Corp is a hot topic right now. And I'm. You know what, I'm grateful that it's a hot topic because that means that more people are recognising what it is to begin with. Right. I mean good, bad and different. And let me just say out loud, that running a business is difficult. Making choices every single day is a difficult thing for any leadership team to do. And so whatever everybody chooses is their choice.

 

Right. That. That's their choice. I get it. But when it comes to being a B corp, this is not the second company that we've been. I've been a part of it as a B corp, it is very expensive, resource intensive. It requires the entire team's buy in because you need information from every single person on the team, from finance to ops to HR to even just down to every single person because we track travel. Right.

 

To offset those. Those to offset that footprint. And so it is a time and resource intensive thing. And to me, you aren't doing something like that unless you're trying your best to get a great score or you're trying your best to understand where you are so you can get even better. It takes a long time. Recertification happens around every three years. And when you do it, it's hundreds of questions and sometimes you don't have the answers to the questions. Then you got to go one level deeper.

 

Two. Two levels deeper. You have to talk to your manufacturers, you talk to your operators. It's a lot of work.

 

Verity Hurd [00:10:16]:

Yeah.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:10:16]:

And I'm proud that we're in B Corp. We just recertified and we think our score is going to go up, but we still right now are at 117, which is a very high score, especially for a brand our size. And it just helps us continue to strive towards being better.

 

Verity Hurd [00:10:27]:

Yeah, I mean, you guys seem to be 100% leading the way in terms of like, you don't have to compromise on that whole side of things.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:10:35]:

Exactly. And I think that is the biggest reason why this brand excites me is that that compromise we talked about in the beginning, which is like, people think it's either or. Here's the interesting part of our product is actually we are not efficacious despite being sustainable. We're efficacious because we are a sustainable format. 

 

So what I've sort of dug underneath when we talk about our product is like, okay, the solid format and the way that we make it actually allows us to reduce so much plastic from the environment. It allows us to put even more active ingredients in our product because we don't have to worry about the water, the preservatives, or throwing off the ph balance and all that stuff. So we actually are able to make something that's even in some cases better than a liquid competitor. Because the format, and then because of that format we can put it into a, into a biodegradable home compostable package.

 

Right. So the form is what drives the efficacy and what drives the sustainability, which is an incredible mix.

 

Verity Hurd [00:11:32]:

Yeah, it's incredible. I mean like I said before, sustainability is a bit of a buzzword for, for many brands. And I think some brands are starting to now incorporate like in terms of like from a purpose, the new missions. And they're trying to incorporate it now after they've been around for a long time. Do you think that brands need to have it from day one, that that purpose driven element from day one or is that, is that an option for brands now? Can they start sort of building it in?

 

Erica Cocilova [00:12:04]:

Listen, I think you can always start. And my ethos is that you're either part of the problem or you're part of the solution.

 

Verity Hurd [00:12:10]:

Right.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:12:11]:

So in no way do I want to discourage or would ever discourage a brand or a big business to do things like B Corp certification or to try to find ways to improve. Because what are we saying then? We're saying that either it's all or nothing. The small things matter, right? Especially if you're a big company doing one small thing really well can move the needle sometimes Even more than 100 of US smaller brands at this point. And so I'm never going to say no, no, you can't do it. I'd say you have to do it authentically. You have to do it legitimately and transparently. You can't just slap on, you know, oh, we're saving the, the whales on top of something where you're like, well, how? Just because you're giving them money. Maybe that's, maybe I would say that the most authentic brands in this space build it in from the beginning.

 

Make the mission completely aligned with what happens when someone purchases you. So I joke with my team about like the receipt, like the beauty receipt is like, okay, sure, you paid $34 for the shampoo and conditioner, but really what else are you doing? Right? That $34 saved eight plastic bottles from manufacturer landfill. It reduced your water footprint. It, it offset carbon by 120%. It, it donated 2% of sales to charity. Like that's the receipt on top of the receipt, right? And so we feel good about that because we don't have to convince somebody that like hey, purchase us and then trust us, we're going to do all these things on the back end that you could feel good about. Just the investment in us is what drives your individual impact that you could feel good about. So that to me feels like a real unlock in the space.

 

But of course I encourage everybody to try to do their part.

 

Verity Hurd [00:13:53]:

Yeah, I think that's really key though. Is that again, a big word, but the authenticity piece there, because I think now, especially with like Gen Z's, like we are so much more aware, like the way we are as consumers. I think it's completely changed how we look at brands and see what they're doing. So, yeah, I don't think we can be greenwashed the way that we used to be.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:14:16]:

I agree. And I think that that's the other thing I wanted to mention is that I think consumers are smart. Consumers can make really, really smart choices without the brands themselves having to tell them that others are doing or not doing something. Right. I mean, consumers know with what's up, they can do their research and, and we trust that consumers can do that.

 

Verity Hurd [00:14:35]:

Yeah. And speaking of your consumers and your specifically your community, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you said your community educates others, they share hacks and they hold you accountable. And for us, that's a, you know, it's a big part of brand advocacy emotion. So I wanted to just understand what has been the most effective tactic in helping these advocates sort of emerge straight.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:14:58]:

First off, I think it's being open. Right. And having enough people on the team who care about what they're talking about and being as transparent as possible. Right. You can't bring consumers along in every single business decision of journey because frankly, you just don't. It's hard to do. Right. We're all moving at lightning speed and it's difficult to do.

 

We recently rebranded and when we rebranded, we knew that it was going to be a bit of a shakeup for some of our consumers that had been around for a really long time. And so we instituted some things that we felt like were really important in that One is we put out a blog on our homepage, not like a buried blog on the homepage called the New Face of Fatigue. And we went through, line by line the reasons we did it. We went through what you could expect, why things were different if they were, or why things weren't different. And, and we were open and honest about it. We needed to make changes to continue to grow this brand sustainably. 

 

And I'm saying sustainably in both senses of the word, because at the end of the day, us being able to grow more profitably allows us actually to achieve the mission that we're set out for. And so we were really, really intentional in Being transparent.

 

The other thing, and I'm just gonna say this out loud and this is maybe the first time people will hear this, but there were a few of us that were answering consumer emails.

 

Verity Hurd [00:16:12]:

Nice.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:16:12]:

I was one of them.

 

Verity Hurd [00:16:13]:

Amazing.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:16:14]:

And it's not that I was answering in any other way than just signing my name. If someone wanted to do the back, they could, they could have checked and seen that it was me, but I was answering. We have a full time consumer experience person, but we had our head of finance that was in there answering questions. We had our head of consumer, we had our D2C team that was in there and we all have logins, we use Gorgias, the platform to respond. And we were all in there when this went live because I wanted to understand the sentiment. We didn't want people to think we weren't listening. And we thought that we had maybe put the answers together right on social or on our site, but we didn't answer everything because we couldn't anticipate everything. And so when questions would come in, we have a Slack channel.

 

We had a standing huddle where we all got together and someone asked a question. We said we need to figure out the right way to talk about this. In some ways we need to be more transparent. In some ways we just didn't expect, explain it quite, quite as well. And I think that type of back and forth and not letting anything sort of linger out there, even if the answer is not one that consumers want to hear, unfortunately, I think is what really makes people understand that we're human on the other side and that our entire being is there to move this mission forward. That's what my team is here for.

 

Verity Hurd [00:17:23]:

Yeah. Throughout that process, was there anything that really surprised you?

 

Erica Cocilova [00:17:27]:

Not that it surprised me, but I will say we have some seriously, seriously devoted fans of our products. It was super hard. I will say there were a few products that we had to take off of the list that just weren't selling enough. And we were open about this. They just weren't selling enough for us to be able to sustainably purchase them from New Zealand, ship them around the world. And we have to be conscious of that footprint and we have to be conscious of our dollars so we can continue to grow. And there were some people who were frankly heartbroken over not having some of the products that they've known and loved, even though they were kind of a niche part of our portfolio. And so we did everything in our power make sure that we could get them a little bit more if we could find it, we did it.

 

But it was really, it wasn't that it was surprising, but it reminded me how passionate consumers are of this brand. And there's some that have been around for such a long time. We're so grateful for that.

 

Verity Hurd [00:18:14]:

Yeah, that's incredible. Tell me a little bit more about sort of bringing this community together, because by the sounds of it, it's happened quite naturally. But obviously there must be some things that you guys have done to harness them even more. Like what? Apart from that two way dialogue? Because we talk about that a lot. That two way dialogue piece is so incredibly important. But yeah, I'd love to just dig in a little bit more about the community piece.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:18:42]:

Yeah. So I think the history of this brand has been one of bringing consumers in for dialogue. So again, the brand started about 12 years ago in New Zealand. New Zealand's a smaller environment and so there's an opportunity for penetration in consumer investment literally to be a bit easier, I think, just by nature of the size of the country. And so this business actually started because the founder crowdsourced. And so there's something about that physical, literal investment in a brand. And she was very, very, very good at inviting in feedback and talking to people and being able to be around, you know, the country and make sure that she got the feedback. Since then, we try to do that digitally.

 

Right. It's a little bit harder to do, but we try to incite the feedback. We say, listen, do you have questions? Share with us, your hacks. Even little things. Like we had a post that went live and we had a team member who washed her hair every day and was showing us what the bar looked like as she washed her hair because it lasts so long and it was on a Slack channel. And so we put it on our Instagram and said, we need you to handle a debate for us. How often do you wash your hair? Our team, our friend here, Sydney, washes it every single day. What do you do? And people went crazy.

 

It was so interesting because they want to talk about it. Right. Hair is such a, again, to your point, a new sort of beauty territory. It's getting to where skin was that there are so many and people are giving advice and talking to each other and tagging each other and just asking a question of this group allows us to have that dialogue and then also get more information about what people want to hear about. It's very fun. The behind the scenes is where is really, really fun for us. People do want to see that we're humans on the other end.

 

Verity Hurd [00:20:22]:

Yeah. And then in terms of, again, many brands talk about community, but few investing it in the way that me and you probably know that the way we should invest in a community. What do you think is advocacy more a result of what a brand does or how it communicates?

 

Erica Cocilova [00:20:40]:

Oh, it's a mix. Oh, that's a hard. That's a hard and good question. Right. I think there are a lot of brands that invest in community, but the community could feel exclusive. Right. They invest in the community, but, you know, it's likely you'll never get an invite to a party or to an event. Right.

 

Then there's the other side, which is that it's sort of open to everybody. But in some ways you're like, I'm not sure if I'm part of that crowd, because is it open to everybody? Who is this for? And so we play a balance. We've been doing a lot of in real life experiences, which has been working really nicely for us.

 

Verity Hurd [00:21:12]:

It's a huge thing, isn't it? Year? I think we're gonna see a lot more. Yeah.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:21:16]:

And not huge. Right. We've had a few panels that have been super successful in bringing just the right people and voices. And I'm not talking about influencers with millions of, you know, followers. I'm talking about just the right people that have their own. Even if small audiences that authentically follow what they do and are interested in what they have to say, and bringing up topics that are interesting. Right. That are different, that are unique to the space and you don't have to go crazy.

 

But inviting not only influencers, but inviting your natural consumers to those events, inviting press where it makes sense, even your retailer community, to see on the inside. Because this long form is where you really get to understand the brands that really want, that you really fit into.

 

Verity Hurd [00:22:01]:

That's really interesting because I think something that's what a lot of people are talking about at the moment in the UK is sort of like the influencer trips out. The. The community trips are in. But now it's changing from community to customers.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:22:13]:

Yes.

 

Verity Hurd [00:22:14]:

And it's interesting what you said about invite the influencers, invite the creators, invite your consumers, invite everybody, because they're all part of the marketing mix now, 100%, but yet there still seems to be something happening where it's. We're segmenting them into these things, but actually together, collectively, totally be so much more powerful as a group if you.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:22:34]:

Really just back all the way up. Right. A brand's consumers are an influencer's consumers. They're just the same people. Right. Like there's no difference. And so us being attractive to or interesting to a consumer makes whatever an influencer is doing with us better and more powerful for their own channel. Right.

 

So investing in each other, I think is a really powerful way to think about it. Because if our, if consumers are excited about what you're saying, then if you partner with us as a brand, you are also saying the same messages that have gotten the consumer excited in the first place. And if at the end of the day, being an influencer is a community building effort, but it's also a business, we're talking to the same people. So bringing them all together in one room and also understanding what makes that consumer excited to hear is everyone's role in this, you know?

 

Verity Hurd [00:23:25]:

Yeah, 100%. And then in terms of sort of turning customers into advocates.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:23:29]:

Yeah.

 

Verity Hurd [00:23:29]:

What would be one piece, we've probably talked about it already, but what would be one piece of advice you would give to another brand to get them from a customer to an advocate?

 

Erica Cocilova [00:23:38]:

Being really clear on what you expect out of yourself and your team in terms of consumer response? Right. Yeah, Our consumer responses too. I mean, of course we use as many things as we can to make it an efficient process so we can get back to everybody. But there's a woman on my team who's answering every single email and she's doing it authentically and uniquely, depending on what they're asking for. And you can tell that, you can tell that. 

 

And leaving people hanging is not going to do anything, even if the feedback is tough. And so I think making someone an advocate is one, having the product that they can feel so proud of that not only they use it, but they can tell anybody about it in a clear and concise way instead of having to explain it for 20 minutes. Two is you've offered something that they feel good about emotionally, which is what we feel like we do on the get once you invest in buying our product.

 

So we're doing all these things for you. And three is frankly service, like let's not forget about that. Right. You could go to an amazing restaurant and if the service is poor, you're like, I'm not going back there.

 

Verity Hurd [00:24:35]:

Yeah, right.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:24:36]:

I can't buy from them. Maybe I'll go, you know, if they have a pop up shop or a food truck, I'll buy it from that destination. But I'm not gonna go back to that restaurant because I don't feel like I'm gonna get my product on time. I don't feel Like I had a good experience.

 

Verity Hurd [00:24:47]:

Yeah.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:24:48]:

And so really bringing those three things together and remembering that at the end of the day consumers have a lot of choices and especially for a brand that is really trying to convince people to change a behaviour and promise them it won't be a trade down. We have to deliver on all those fronts.

 

Verity Hurd [00:25:01]:

Yeah, they're perfect. Three, honestly. And I think that what you're saying about what makes people talk about a product as well, you know, we do an advocacy masterclass and at the start we ask everyone's favourite brand and why and when they, when they start, you can see it when they light up when they talk about their favourite brand. And it's not always about the product. In fact, very few actually mention the product. It's about how they make them feel and that's really inspiring.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:25:28]:

I think so. And that's what's so important to us is we are able to do all three things and we're a small, mighty team but we have it all built into our DNA. And so the more we get people introduced to us, we feel so confident that just more people that know about us and just try. We have this little campaign going on right now called Love it for Swipe. Oh yeah. It's a fun way to sort of also explain to people that you just put it directly on your head.

 

Verity Hurd [00:25:54]:

Yeah.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:25:55]:

Because we've done all sorts of things to make sure it's very clear that just trying us once down to even clinical claims after just one use, that the experience is going to be amazing. Trust us. Just do it. And once you do it, you know you're going to have a great experience in your shower and then we build a great experience around that outside the shower.

 

Verity Hurd [00:26:14]:

That speaks volumes though, doesn't it? Like we interviewed a company back in the UK called SimProven, they're a gut health drink and they. I interviewed the head of advocacy and you know, she said similar in terms of we gift everybody because we're so. We know our product works but we also know it's really personal and I suppose yours would be very similar. But she was like, we have to give people the chance to use it and then once they use it, that's it. They kind of does the rest for them.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:26:44]:

Exactly. And that is something that I would say brands especially again, changing behaviour, changing mindset about, you know, a sustainable product being able to be an efficacious one. You've got to get it in people's hands. Right. You have. And heads wherever, wherever the, wherever the product goes. Right. You got to get it on there.

 

Because we do know the amount of people. I can't even tell you, Verity, the amount. Who are like, well, what do you. What do you do? I'm like, oh, I work for a solid hair care brand. What do you mean? I'm like. Like a, Like a bar. Think about it. Solid.

 

What, what do you. On your head? I'm like, yeah, just try it. Do me a favour. Just try. I'll get you the right one for you. Just try it one time. And they're like, what is. Why isn't all shampoo like this? I don't understand.

 

What have I been missing out on? Or we'll do salon takeovers. We did one in Australia, in Sydney, over the summer, their winter. Our. Our summer. And we're doing one actually this week in Miami. And we have these stylists that have never seen this, right? Or we have these people that come to the salon and want to, you know, they're there because they're intrigued. But I've had people walk in and look me straight in the face and go, don't know why I'm here. I don't think this is going to work for my hair.

 

And I'm like, amazing. I'm so happy. Can you please say that? Like now can we record you saying you don't think it's going to work? Because wait until you see and feel what your hair feels like after just one of this. Right? And we didn't do product in the hair after it was shampoo and conditioner. And the way people's faces change when they're like, oh my. What? I can't. I can't believe it. And I'm like, yeah.

 

And now you have three bottles of the equivalent of three bottles of shampoo and the equivalent of five bottles conditioner in your shower on a tray. Go for it. It's like a light bulb switches on what's possible, which is such a cool paradigm shift.

 

Verity Hurd [00:28:34]:

Love that. Erica, you've worked. I mean, you mentioned earlier, Dove legacy brand, right? What something legacy brands do you feel still get wrong when it comes to loyalty and long term growth?

 

Erica Cocilova [00:28:47]:

So before Dove, my background's actually in performance marketing and D2C. So I'm not going to age myself here because no one needs to do that. But it was at a time when direct to consumer was pretty new, online retail was pretty new. And I was actually just talking on the panel that I had a few weeks ago. I was selling language learning CDs.

 

Verity Hurd [00:29:10]:

Interesting.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:29:11]:

Yes. Yep. Totally. Yep. And it was at a time when like subscription was just getting, you know, started. And so I learned so much about marketing from that lens. Right. That you don't need to go out and hire big agencies to tell you what a consumer likes or they don't like.

 

It can be a direct to consumer model. Right. Like they can tell you what they like by nature of what they're clicking on, what they convert on, what they buy, what they come back to buy on, if it's a subscription, if it's not, what channel converts best, et cetera. Right.

 

Verity Hurd [00:29:41]:

Yeah.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:29:42]:

So my mindset's always been that before going to a big company and Unilever was an amazing place because then Unilever on Dove and Unilever taught me how to take all that other stuff, all those other great resources and sort of layer that on top of what I believe is a direct to consumer mindset. But when I was there, and I was there for three years, I was lucky enough to be on the, the global team that developed products and went to market with the men's face care and shave line. And then I went down. I say down because it was literally just a floor downstairs to the body wash team. The body wash and bar team, which was, we all know Dove body wash and bar and in the US Is a huge, massive business. So I was able to activate with these huge budgets. So I was managing the budget one day, right? First known, they're teaching me how to manage the budget. And it's massive budget, like ridiculous amounts of millions of dollars that we couldn't dream of having right now.

 

And there was a set of lines on the budget. And I'm like, what is, what are these? Like, what? This is just like a fixed percentage down here. Like what are these? Oh, well, this goes to the team that helps build our. In our in store shelving. Oh, okay. Well, that makes sense. Oh, and this goes to the consumer research team. And that way you don't have to worry about like they, they just handle it all for you.

 

And this is for the direct to consumer e commerce team. And I said, what do you mean? What do they do with it? Oh, we don't know. They sit in another building. Well, can I talk to them? Or like should we, should we have a conversation? Well, no, they just, they do their thing. That's their team. They handle all the brands and you just pay for it. And I was like, I cannot do that. I cannot.

 

So young Erica, you know, just like me march into the like e commerce team like friends. What are you doing? What Emails are you sending, how are you sampling, how are, what channels are we invested in? So that was one thing that I think sort of always made me a little bit like, I need to talk to them. The second was that because the nature of a huge brand, all of the social marketing activity, including like any consumer engagement and community management, all paid media was outsourced. And so outside of generic reports that we would get on maybe a monthly basis when you would sit down with your interagency team, I just felt like I was losing the voice of the consumer. I was losing the understanding of like what we were spending our money on. What is it doing? How do people feel about. Was to me, just a little too disconnected now. The brand is incredible.

 

This is not me. Unilever was an amazing place for me to grow and learn. It just for me, I needed to just get tighter. I needed to get tighter with how the brand was actually affecting, talking to, ultimately converting and continuing to convert consumers.

 

Verity Hurd [00:32:29]:

Interesting. I love that first story. How did they take it?

 

Erica Cocilova [00:32:32]:

They were open, they were receptive, but they were like, oh, what do you, you know, you know, it's like the door opens, like, what are you doing here? Why, why is this brand person at our, at our door? Right?

 

Verity Hurd [00:32:42]:

Also, from your perspective, Erica, what do you think is the biggest block stopping traditional beauty brands from taking these bold value led risks?

 

Erica Cocilova [00:32:51]:

In some ways it's fear, right? I think in some ways it's fear. It's hard to know what to do, to be honest. Like right now as a consumer, right, I'm, I consider myself a pretty conscious consumer trying to figure out ways for me to do all my little parts better. And even then, you know, you talk about like wishful, like wish cycling. You hear that term before, which is like, so wish cycling is basically, you want to recycle, you think you're doing the right thing. And in the US Specifically, every state has every, not even state, every town or every municipality has different rules. And so you're kind of like, I want to recycle. I think I'm putting this in the right bin, or I'm supposed to wash it.

 

I'm not supposed to wash it. And so you sort of wish cycle. And for some municipalities that don't have sophisticated systems, that could ruin the whole lot of things that you've put in the recycling bin. If you put one thing that's not right. Yeah, it scares people. There's too many, there's so many ways you could do it right and you could do it wrong. When you're really just trying. And I think for brands, you have to do that in a very public forum.

 

And so making that leap and taking a bold stance, you don't necessarily know how your consumer base is going to react. Right. You can have a consumer base that's like, I love. This is amazing. You can have ones that are apathetic, you have ones that hate it. But unless you are like, the conviction is there, which often comes from the beginning. Right. And I'm not saying that you can't.

 

I'm just saying that if you really felt so strongly about something within your brand and mission, it would have been there from the beginning and you wouldn't care if people disagree with you that it's hard to then start that because you don't want to alienate the other thing that's hard. Is that back to the point about, well, if you're not doing it all right, then you're doing it wrong. Well, that can't be true. Right. There's got to be ways for brands that are. And there are ways. There are plenty of brands that are in plastic bottles that are doing their best to do something else. There are plenty of brands that do all these other things that some brands might consider, like, don't ever do, but they're doing other things right.

 

And so we have to celebrate and be okay with those things, too. But I think sometimes when the brand is already steeped in the places where they feel like hot button issues from a consumer sustainability perspective, they're worried about saying something that negates or puts on its face something that they're currently doing that's really important to them. And so it's. You just got to start small and figure out where you feel really confident that this is where you're going to live.

 

Verity Hurd [00:35:10]:

Yeah, I agree, though I think most of it will come from fear and sort of like a backlash of either being called out you're not doing enough.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:35:18]:

Right.

 

Verity Hurd [00:35:20]:

And I think, yeah, I think that would be. It'd be the fear thing for me that would be stopping people because like we've just said, the consumer is more savvy now.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:35:28]:

Totally.

 

Verity Hurd [00:35:28]:

And they will call you out.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:35:30]:

They will call you out. And it's your job as business leader to understand whether that call out is something that you need to take action on or that call it is something that you need to take a community approach to and explain. Yeah, being perfect is not going to work out. It just doesn't exist.

 

Verity Hurd [00:35:46]:

No. And also, I think, again, it kind of, if we do fail and we can Talk about that to our consumers. And that like you said before, it just shows how human we are. And I think there's a big thing this year about that human connection piece on so many different levels. Like you said in real life experiences, we want, want that again. But also, you know, connecting with you as the CEO and you know, knowing that you can make a mistake in, in what we're doing. Nobody is ever going to get this right. There's no rule book and it starts from inside.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:36:15]:

Right. I'm very open and transparent with my team. We talk all the time about like, well, okay, thought, I thought this, that didn't work out. We're going to pivot this way. And creating that culture within means that there's not a fear outside. Right. Like advocacy and the way the culture looks on the inside needs to reflect what's going on on the outside as well. And I, I certainly have no problem admitting if I, if the decision needs to be changed.

 

That's something we're all learning and growing every day.

 

Verity Hurd [00:36:42]:

We may have touched on this already, but I just wanted to kind of go back to the customer piece and I suppose it's about meeting where your customers are and what kind of tactics you've used to connect with them. Like I said, where they're at.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:36:56]:

Totally. So we talk about the repos. I wouldn't, I don't want to say repositioning but the rebranding that we did was all in was so purposeful to make it easier for a consumer, even if they aren't searching for the most sustainable option, to be interested in what we're buying. Right. So we didn't compromise on any of our things, anything that we holds true today. Right. We're still a plastic free brand, inside and out, home compostable packaging. Our footprint barely changed and again everything is offset by 120% if anything.

 

But we just made our product clearer. So for example, the product was small on the shelf and it was very, very hard to read that this shampoo or this conditioner was for your type of hair or wasn't even explicitly saying it. It was saying something that wasn't quite easy for a consumer to understand and they'd have to get really, really close to it to understand it. And so, and also we didn't have shampoo and conditioner sets. We had a lot of shampoos that were called different things like Pinkalicious and Healy Kiwi and we had conditioners called Too Delicious and the Guardian. And while those are really fun, cute names and part of our brand ethos. 

 

We didn't think it was doing anything for that massive set of consumers that we want to attract who are eco conscious, happy to buy clean, happy to buy sustainable, but just aren't gravitating or searching for or looking for a product like this. So at the end of the day, a rising tide lifts all the boats.

 

Right. We are still doing all of those things just in a fun shape. The colours matched inside of the box because sometimes people will use the bar and then forget which one they use because it didn't match the colour. Really. Making sure that we are attractive at whatever sense of the word is to a larger group of consumers without alienating our current ones so that we can achieve the mission. Right. The more consumers buying our product, the better, no matter what. There's no trade down to having one more consumer being interested in buying our product.

 

And so it was a change. We made a bold change in that way. And honestly, it got attention in a way that I think we wouldn't have otherwise. And that's why we did it, that's why we invested in it.

 

Verity Hurd [00:39:08]:

Yeah, I love that. And I think it sort of makes me think of the Inkey List, the skincare brand, because they, you know, their founder, they're just so passionate about the education piece of it. And I think, like we said, it's skincare beauty. There's so many brands and there's so many ingredients and we don't actually know what's right. And I suppose hair care has been like that as well. And I think making it so clear and simple, what we need to have and use is, you know, like I said, we just need that now.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:39:36]:

Totally. And skin is a perfect example. I mean, Inkey List is also a perfect example. I worked for Briogeo before. This is cmo, this idea of taking beautiful skin care ingredients that you know are good for your skin but frankly also are recognisable. Right. Trying to make this decision as easy as possible for somebody to invest in.

 

Verity Hurd [00:39:55]:

Yeah, right.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:39:56]:

Because using all of those things really gives the cue and our product specifically allows us to put it in at levels well, higher than you could in a liquid, simply by nature of how it's made.

 

Verity Hurd [00:40:09]:

I can't wait to try this.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:40:10]:

Okay. Well, I can't wait to give it to you. I'm like, you're gonna. It's gonna blow you away. It's so cool. It's so fun.

 

Verity Hurd [00:40:16]:

I so need it. It's on. My scalp's really bad, so.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:40:18]:

Well, listen, I've Got a product for you. Scalp Health is actually our best seller. It always was our best seller. And then when we rebranded, I was super curious because we're reaching so many new consumers about what the product rank would be, and scalp remains the number one. And I love that, because what it shows me is that a discerning consumer who knows that scalp care is the, you know, door for good hair care is buying this format. So that's a spark for me that I'm really, really excited about.

 

Verity Hurd [00:40:46]:

I wonder why we don't talk about scalp care the way that we probably talk about skincare and stuff. Because it is such a. It's. It's. If it's not right for you, and it's not like so many people must have issues with it.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:40:59]:

I think something like. So, again, the brand that I was a part of before, this beautiful, incredible brand, incredible products, Briojo was some of the best products in the market. I could say that. I'll say that to anybody who listen. We were really steeped in scalp care, and there was all these stats. And again, some of the bigger prestige brand retailers, beauty retailers like Sephora and Ulta, do know this because they're doing their research. I think the stat was something like at least 75% of consumers say that they have some sort of scalp issue, whether it be dry or oily or something in between, but don't know what to do about it. And so we were leaders in that space in trying to educate on the fact that, like, scalp care is hair.

 

It is hair care. It's. It's. It really is creates the environment for you to grow healthy hair. I'm not saying. It's not saying it's growth. That. That's a.

 

That's a medical claim. That's. I'm saying that if your scalp isn't healthy or if your follicles are inflamed or you don't have the right nutrients, just like anything on your face, those pores will clog, and ultimately you can't grow something that can really latch on. So hair falls more or your hair is thinner or it's just not in its best. Yeah, it's at its best state. And so having more people pay attention to that ultimately makes their hair care journey just a lot better. And we're really excited that we are able to sort of own that space in the solid territory that people are paying attention.

 

Verity Hurd [00:42:15]:

Love it. What do you think is the most misunderstood part of brand building in the sustainable space?

 

Erica Cocilova [00:42:22]:

I touched on this a little bit, but it's talking too much about what you do versus mixing what you offer. Right. So those could sound like the same thing, but I really believe that they're not. What you offer is what a consumer is buying from you. What you do is the reason why consumers come back. Right. And when you invest so much and when you're a mission led brand, that this is what you're there for. Often it's founder led.

 

So there's so much passion and people are coming for that mission. You tend to double down on that communication so much that you forget about talking to the consumer about exactly what they need, which is really what their purchase driver is.

 

Verity Hurd [00:42:59]:

Yeah.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:42:59]:

And so that mix, that. Right. Mix of this and this, this and this, and educating on why you chose to do what you do on the sustainable side or the eco conscious side. Not just we do all these things. This is why. And this is why you could feel good about it. I think that mix is really, really, really important.

 

Verity Hurd [00:43:17]:

Yeah.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:43:17]:

Also just. It doesn't have to be so serious. Right? Like, sustainability doesn't have to be serious. You could be fun. You could be, you know, you could partner with influencers that have big followers or small followers that are doing fun, goofy things and are being authentic. It doesn't have to be serious. Even though the topic that we are addressing is serious. Alienating people by making the conversation too serious, I think is not the route right now.

 

Verity Hurd [00:43:41]:

Yeah. Erica, how do you build advocacy?

 

Erica Cocilova [00:43:46]:

How do I personally having conversations, honest, transparent conversations. I think the biggest way that we've seen advocacy being built. So that's why we're focusing so much on sort of this, like, long form in real life type of environment where we can't do in real life. In real life, we're trying to make that feel, you know, connected. And in real life, on our social handles, even down to the way that we communicate, I think people are drawn to brands and sets of people. In my team, very similarly. You talk to anyone on my team and you're like, whoa, this is, this is something interesting. This is something different.

 

And so being a part of something that people are passionate about right now, when the world feels kind of heavy, being a part of something that's different, that's doing something, that's not just sitting back and being like, oh, here we go. That, to me, I think, has been, has been building it. We are part of a group of brands under the same PE firm called Bonks, and we spend a lot of time with that group.

 

 And every time I get a chance to talk to somebody it's so refreshing because, you know, there's so many people that are interested in what we're talking about and interested in what we're doing and trying, and it's because we've had a chance to introduce it in a human way. Right. Not just a try this, not just a buy this. And so a lot of our ads right now, most of our ads that are doing well, for example, are people who have actively tried the product and even more so people who open the conversation with I was sceptical.

 

Verity Hurd [00:45:12]:

Yeah.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:45:13]:

And those are the ads that are doing well because in some ways you have to get your name out there and buy that. Those, you know, you know, invest in some of those spaces. But with people.

 

Verity Hurd [00:45:21]:

Well, that's the thing. If I'm looking for a new product, particularly like, say I'm searching for something for my scalp, like, you know, I kind of go to TikTok and I look for the people that are, you know, and any ads that I look at now, I can sense an ad from a mile off. But the ones that I actually kind of watch are the ones that sound like yours, where it's an actual person. They've used it. You can see it before and after. Yeah.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:45:45]:

You build advocacy with showing, not telling too. Right. We invested in the clinical claims. I mean, the clinical claims that we have are go up against any premium hair care brand at this point. We invest in before and afters and we are really, really specific on what a before and after is allowed to have. Right. It's only our product. No hair retouching.

 

Real people, you know, like, we're very specific on that and just making it easy for someone to say, like, I want this regardless of the format. Because we're, we're giving you that opportunity to find something that really does transform your hair and transforms the way that you operate in the sustainable world.

 

Verity Hurd [00:46:23]:

Erica, I've loved trying to you. This has been awesome. If anyone wanted to contact you, what would. Where would be the best place?

 

Erica Cocilova [00:46:30]:

You can contact me through my team at.

 

Verity Hurd [00:46:33]:

Hello.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:46:33]:

At a Teak. You can go to. You could direct message us on Atique World. Atique World is our handle on Instagram. I promise you it'll get back to me. Promise you. Also, I'm featured a lot now on the social handles, which is an interesting thing. My baby picture is up there right now, so in case you wanted to see what I looked like at one and a half, it's right on our our feed.

 

Verity Hurd [00:46:52]:

I love that. It's so cute.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:46:54]:

Sometimes it just works so it happens.

 

Verity Hurd [00:46:56]:

Thank you so much.

 

Erica Cocilova [00:46:57]:

Thank you. We really appreciate it.

 

Paul Archer [00:47:00]:

That was another episode of Building Brand Advocacy, the world's top brand building podcast. To find out more about Building Brand Advocacy and how this podcast is part of a bigger plan for our Brand Building Cookbook, then make sure to search for Building Brand Advocacy in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or anywhere else that podcasts are found. And make sure that you click subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. Thanks to Duel for sponsoring. To find out more, go to www.duel.tech. that's D U E L dot T E C H. And on behalf of the team here at Building Brand Advocacy, thanks for listening.