SMS and Email marketing has been around for a long time now, and they’re yet to show any signs of becoming redundant - in fact, they’re here to stay for a while. But what are some of the secrets behind them? How can your own efforts into customer segmentation, as well as your content, feed into your customer retention? And just how important is Customer First data and Progressive Profiling?

In this episode of Building Brand Advocacy, Paul is joined by Georgia Carter, Marketing Consultant and Founder of Pepped. Georgia has over a decade of experience specialising in lifecycle marketing and CRM, and has a proven track record of turning leads into loyal, raving fans. She is the Founder of Pepped, a boutique lifecycle marketing agency that helps growing health and wellness businesses both in the UK and US attract, convert and retain more customers. She is also a Lifecycle Marketing Consultant for Hims & Hers.

If you’re interested in the processes of SMS and email marketing, as well as how to evolve your niche business whilst also retaining your customers, tune in to this episode of Building Brand Advocacy.

Paul: Hello. Welcome to Building Brand Advocacy. I'm incredibly excited to be joined by Georgie Carter. Georgie, welcome.

Georgie: Thank you. Hi, welcome. Great to be here.

Paul: It's really great to have you here. So really we're going to learn a little bit about what you specialize in and going to get quite deep, a little bit nerdy on that. But before we talk about that, what I want to know is how did you get into the world of brand building and how has your career evolved to get you to this point today?

Georgie: Yeah, good question. It was slightly convoluted journey, so I started my career out in advertising, so for a couple of years in an ad agency, then jumped ship into a brand side and worked five years for a sort of business called House, actually a US website and app for home redesign. And I ended up specializing in the kind of the world of email lifecycle marketing, and I was leading on the email and the lifecycle marketing there. So, yeah, it was a great place to kind of get my feet under the table when it comes to email and just a world of CRM, which is now what we do at Pepped. So, yeah, good experience to build up.

Paul: And a perfect segue. So, Pepped, tell us about that.

Georgie: Yeah, Pepped is my agency. I started the business about two and a half years ago, so still relatively new. But as our focus, we specialize in email, SMS marketing for direct to consumer businesses in the sort of health and wellness space. So that would be things like skincare brands through to sort of food and drink, vitamin subscription, CBD, mental health apps, really working with those brands to map out their customer journey and help them make sure they're sending the right cons to the right people at the right time, using sort of email and SMS as those touch points. So, yeah, that's our key focus. We're quite niche within a niche, so I sort of specialized there. But yeah, it's worked really well for us so far to have that focus and to work with the brands that are sort of disruptive and new in the space. I think as a team, we all really enjoy working with those sorts of sort of new age thinking, disruptive type brands that are sort of carving new past in the health and wellness space.

Paul: And give us a flavor of some of the brands you work with.

Georgie: Yeah, sort of all over the place. We work with businesses in UK and US, so Hymns is one of the businesses we're working there. US men's wellness business through to work with Planet Organic, work with Trip, CBD Drink, sort of a lot of fem care and femtech women's wellness. So, yeah, real variety mental health has been another interesting space that we sort of tapped into. So I guess although we are fairly niche within sort of health wellness, there are a variety of different types of businesses within that space from a product and service perspective. So yes, skincare features sort of more mental health type service based businesses. So yeah, it's quite broad in that.

Paul: Sense that's the massive brands there as well. It's one of those areas in just skin care alone because we work quite a few of them at Jewel. It's just an area which is growing and it appears to be relatively recession proof because same as in VC generally it's just powerful because it's something people can control.

Georgie: It's interesting because I think also I was reading the other day that post pandemic, I think people are continuing to shift more of their attention and their focus and their discretionary spend on their own health. And the self care sort of trend doesn't seem to be going anywhere. And I think that's maybe escalated pre-pandemic and during the pandemic. And I don't think it's definitely a space where there's a lot of brands sort of starting and expanding into. So yeah, I think it is hopefully touchwood, semi recession proof and maybe even Pandemic proof as well, who knows? So yeah, it's been an interesting space.

Paul: To be in that sort of lends itself really nicely. To talk about lifecycle marketing, you gave us a bit of a summary when you said what you did. Is that how you would define it? Is there anything that you would add there as the category as itself?

Georgie: Yeah, I mean, really one of the first things we'll do with clients is just go through their customer journey with them and map out all of those different touch points from someone having never heard about a particular brand through to being a loyal advocate customer. So it's that journey that a customer goes through and thinking about how do you communicate with those people who are at very different stages. If they're new to the brand vessels having bought five times and referred all their friends, you want to talk to those people in different ways and treat them differently. So yeah, it's really about mapping out that customer journey and making sure you're sending right people, right time. And yeah, we very much focus on that email, SMS part of that equation.

Paul: Because presumably they are the most controllable direct channels that any brand has.

Georgie: Yeah, I mean, it's obviously an owned channel, so you have control over what you're sending, when you're sending, who you're sending it to, and you're not at the mercy of kind of various social media algorithms, that sort of stuff. Yeah, email is a great channel to get straight into the inboxes of your target audience, your customers. Email isn't going anywhere, it's been around for a fair amount of time now and people still read them and engage with them and SMS is a sort of newer tool that we've added to our repertoire. So yeah, I forgot what your original question is now. But yeah.

Paul: It makes a lot of sense, but SMS, I think is more mature as a category in the US. Is that right? How does it differ between the way that US brands and UK brands use that as a channel?

Georgie: Yeah, so what we're saying is, I think it's not necessarily the brands, but also the consumers. So I think we're saying that people in the US are much more open to receiving text messages than maybe we are in the UK. I think that balance is leveling up a little bit more now. It definitely has over the last couple of years or so, but inherently, traditionally, the US are a little bit more open to having a brand text them versus the I think maybe here we're a little bit more guarded and maybe it's a little bit more of a private, personal space, but that is shifting. There's also the challenge. On top of that, we've got much more stringent rules around consent and opt in over here versus the US. So I think that added to the difficulty that maybe some brands in the UK have seen around texting their customers. But we have clients and prospective clients come to us all the time now saying that they want to start SMS and also MMS. So image based texting, particularly for fashion brands, although not quite health and well, if you have worked with a fashion brand or two and they've seen really interesting or really great results from MMS, they're sending products, images, particularly for like, an abandoned cart check outflow. So hooking people back in with the product that they abandoned has worked pretty well.

Paul: And how are they getting someone's phone numbers in that case? Is this because someone has shared it with the brand previously? How do you source? It is a bit of a private, a bit of data. In many ways, we give away our emails all over the place, but it does feel like the phone, particularly in the UK, it does feel like your phone number is a bit more private. Our brands, first of all, if your brands trying to get into this space has the best way to acquire as much of that as they can.

Georgie: Yeah, funny you asked. I actually did a webinar on this yesterday. But a couple of key ways, what we'd recommend is that you treat email and SMS separately. So obviously in the UK and the US, you need to get opt-in and consent. People have to not only give you their phone number, but say, you can send me marketing based text messages and people aren't just going to come and knock on your door and say, hey, here's my phone number, do what you like with it. But you've got to encourage them or incentivize them to give you their phone number and let you text them. So there's a couple of sort of key ways that this can work really well. The first is to create maybe a little bit of exclusivity around SMS so offers incentives that might only be available for people who are on the SMS list. We've seen one brand, no one we've worked with, but they've got a VIP SMS club, for example. So just a little bit of exclusivity around SMS versus any other channel. People also see sort of interesting results from putting SMS sign up on websites or in blog posts. You see email newsletter sign up all the time, pest all over websites, but SMS so often. So that's another great tool to kind of just encourage that sign up. Again, you got to incentivize people to sign up and it doesn't necessarily just have to be discounts money off. Think about other creative ways that you can incentivize your audience at checkout. Another really obvious one. So people particularly want to get sort of text messages that are focused on their transactions. So order shipped, order confirmed, all that sort of stuff is people are quite used to receiving that via SMS these days. And some research I read the other day saying they actually want to versus more of the educational side of things. Your longer form messages is better on email, for example, about a loyalty program that would probably fit better within an email versus SMS, which is maybe a little bit more transactional or promotional-led. So, yes, a couple of key ways there. So thinking about your website and gathering opt in there, checkout is a great place to again collect consent. So, yeah, I think it's about being a little bit creative with where you're asking for it, but also how you're asking in terms of how can you incentivize that sign up.

Paul: Yeah, it's always going to be a give and take, isn't it?

Georgie: Yeah.

Paul: How do you see apps playing for skills? So pushed would be one of the other more intrusive, I mean, in the most positive as a marketer kind of way of actually getting your message out there. So apps, there definitely was a phase a few years ago where every brand felt they had to have an app. I think the main reason being because of the push notification, I haven't seen that many apps succeed with pure play brands in retail apps for sure, as destinations, but this must be a massive opportunity if they want to have a direct communication. Have you worked on anything that's similar like that? Have you got any sort of tips in terms of when a brand should be thinking about an app? Is the right strategy versus actually SMS is going to do you just fine?

Georgie: Yeah, it's a good question. We have worked with a couple of brands who have apps and we help them with their push and in app notifications. I think my recommendation would be to again not think of them in silos and like any marketing strategy, it all needs to be cohesive and sort of fit within each other. So I would suggest you've only got a certain number of characters within or push notifications so they're only going to be useful for certain types of messages getting, poking people back into the app. I think email is probably a better place for that sort of more of that brand building, adding value, educational type content and SMS. I would sit within the sort of promotional bucket, but also for transactional type messages regarding that order. I guess push notifications are better for sort of those alerts. Getting people to I don't know, for example, if it's like a fitness based app, getting people to engage, get back at, do another workout, log their scores, maybe more of those types of notifications that are to do with the apps themselves rather than maybe the brand would be my sort of initial thought.

Paul: Yeah, because otherwise no one wants to be sold to now. But the idea of being like hey, let's do a workout together here's a value is something which I think is lost in many brand comms. It's just like hey, buy some more stuff, go please buy some more stuff, when that is not the way to succeed. Everyone always likes to look at each other. A lot of people will be running their email campaigns. Everyone will be running email. Some people rerunning SMS, CSL will be doing push. What sort of numbers are good? Like what would you expect in terms of a standard email open rate for a brand and likewise in terms of engagement rate. I'm not sure whether you can see open rate within SMS but at least kind of response rates.

Georgie: Yeah, so I guess starting with SMS a good kind of open rate is between sort of well I was looking at our sats the other day actually in the end, so yeah, sorry, not open click. I can tell you for SMS open is actually incredibly high because everyone opens their SMS. That's just so it's like through the roof in the click rate you want to aim for between sort of ten and a half and 14 and a half percent is a good SMS click rate. Conversion between kind of one 2%, so not dissimilar to email, slightly, slightly higher. An unsubscribe rate similar to email you want to keep below 1%. So that's sort of on the SMS side, email potentially a little bit trickier just because you've got so many potentially slightly more segments and people who are unengaged are going to interact very differently with your email addresses. People who are super loyal customers, same with your SMS, but you probably would likely send your more loyal SMS customers. But for email it's going to depend on who you're sending to. But as a benchmark, 30% is a good open rate. If you can get higher than that, then even better conversion. We always sort of say if you can get up sort of 1 to 2%, doing really well and unsubscribes you want sort of less than 1% is always good or even less than half a percent, ideally. So I mean there's some very kind of thing in the air type stats. It's going to just depend on your audience, how engaged they are, the type of industry you're in, all those different things. But there's some sort of top level, very top line benchmarks for you. I think it's always a difficult one until you dive into the data. It's kind of difficult to know where you stand but hopefully that gives you a good sense.

Paul: Well, they seem that's massively different though in terms of if you think about semesters of the channel, those numbers you are bouncing around there looks like it's ten times more powerful than email.

Georgie: Yeah, and that's purely because people respond to them much more quickly because everyone's got their phone within a meter of themselves and people are opening and receiving and interacting with their phone on a much more regular basis than email. Even though email is super high. It's a great way to kind of get straight into people's brains and into their minds versus email is a little bit more. I'll check it when I want to or it's still on people's phones, but they're not necessarily getting an alert every time they get an email. Whereas SMS, it's like the forefront, isn't it? You're getting an alert on your phone every time you get a message or WhatsApp or whatever, so it's much more likely to be open and read.

Paul: Are there any demographic differences in that? Because you'll have some demographics that live on email, some that live on social, but at the same time I'm just sort of thinking about myself in the scenarios. I have filters on my email and everything that comes from a brand goes into my promos tab and never gets read, so I never see anything. So I'm probably a bad example. Even though I do more email than anything else, I'm so bad on a brand, as a customer. How do you see the segments in terms of this? Because it's such a broad, everyone's got an email but everyone uses it in a very different way.

Georgie: Yeah, I'm similar. And the irony that I went through my inbox the day and unsubscribed from so many different brand emails, I was slightly talking to myself. But I bet there I'd almost kind of put the question back on you because I bet there are some brand emails, maybe there's only one or two that you do open and that you do read. And so I guess it's not necessarily the demographic. I'd say that it's maybe more about the content of the email and maybe they haven't quite nailed that in terms of you as their recipient, as their audience. Whereas it sounds like I've certainly got a couple of emails that I always kind of flick through and some others delete and I won't read. But there are a couple of regulars that pop up once a week and I do have a browse through those, and that's because the content is interesting to me and I kind of value what they send me. So I think it's more about making sure that you've got the right content and that you're adding value to your audience no matter how you might have to segment that a fair amount because you might have different buckets or percentage of people. But I'd say that it's potentially more about the type of content that you're sending in order to make sure that's relevant to that person, maybe almost regardless of their age or gender. It's just about making sure that what you're sending is resonating with them. I don't know if I'd go as far as to say that there are generalizations that I'd make across different genders or demographics at this stage. I think it's more about making sure that you're understanding their challenges and their problems and are able to speak to those.

Paul: Yeah, because I can conceptually understand how Gen Z's attention on particular platforms, like focusing on your tiptoes in the world or something like that. But I have absolutely no concept of what Gen Z's email behaviors are like. Do you have a feel for that, that they do work differently or is email always used as a transactional thing because conversations always live on another platform? Do you have much of a feel for that?

Georgie: Yeah, that's a great question. I think, of course, TikTok has a massive place in Gen Z’s head world and I think email is probably used slightly differently for those demographics. So, as you say, it's potentially more on the transactional side, still a little bit of value. And maybe there's the type of email newsletter summary, educational type content that works well on email. But I think still you've got obviously TikTok social that's adding more of that kind of the entertainment, I should say, around kind of that they see them every day and they're getting new content there. Whereas I think, yeah, potentially, slightly different role for email for Gen Z. It's an interesting one. I don't think I've got a solid answer for you, but you've got my sort of brain thinking there. I need to move again, do a bit of research on that side of things because there's definitely a shift going on, I think, in terms of getting these big platforms, TikTok et cetera, having much more of an impact on the way people are consuming content.

Paul: Yeah, definitely. And the way that ads flow and information travels. There's lots of ways that works. When you're looking at lifecycle management as a whole, what do you think are the main mistakes that people make that you see time and time again? That you just bang your head against the wall like, no, you're doing it wrong, just do it like this?

Georgie: Yeah, there are a couple. The first one is really around ,we touched on this a little slightly earlier, is around segmentation or I should say lack of segmentation. So it's so easy as a new brand to send everything to everyone and not necessarily think about breaking down your different buckets of people. And yeah, rule number one for a good lifecycle marketing strategy is to segment and personalize your comp. So thinking about using kind of different metrics such as how frequently someone's bought, how recently they've bought, how much they've spent, there'd be kind of obvious couple of buckets that you can split people into. So you might have people who've bought very recently and have spent a lot of money versus people who are kind of infrequent buyers and maybe have only bought once. And just segmenting by those different parameters is a good starting point. And then you can kind of layer on more of your customer first data. So if you're running a quiz on the site, for example, collecting some of that data so that you can understand more about people's challenges or what they're facing, or sort of what their problems are thinking about how often someone interacts with the brand as a whole, not necessarily on email. So there are a number of different layers you can kind of add to this. And it's slightly a never ending bucket of different ways you can segment or split your audience, but definitely by sort of how recency frequency and monetary value is a good sort of starting point. So yeah, I guess in answer to your question, one of the key challenges that we see brands coming to us with it is not segmenting their audience properly and just blast sending everything to everyone, which maybe works for a little bit as a startup. But longer term isn't the best strategy.

Paul: Obviously, you need to segment on something. You use the term there customer first. Can you tell us a bit more about what that means?

Georgie: Yes, sure. So that's the sort of data that you can collect that essentially someone is giving you whether they kind of realize it or not. So it's thinking about stuff. Like I mentioned a quiz earlier, so if you've got a quiz on your website, someone's filling it in. If you're a skincare brand and you're asking someone to tell you about their skin concerns so that you can direct them to the right product, that data is the customer’s best data. Equally, how someone's kind of interacting with the site, your emails, whether they're using promotions, whether they're in a loyalty program, all of that data is a little bit above and beyond what you originally had when they first made a purchase or when they first came to the site. So you can kind of continue to collect that and use another sort of tactic called progressive profiling. So this is about actively asking people for more information about themselves. So you might ask them, if you don't have a quiz on your site that you're a skincare brand, you might ask them in an email, what's their biggest skin concern, for example. And you might have a couple of different options in that email or on social, wherever it might be. But it's just about kind of continuing to gather a little bit more information about those people as you build that relationship with them.

Paul: Yeah, that makes sense, I think. Mike Gartner who talks about third party data being data, which is a pool of data you can buy and access to. First up parts data which is the data that you own based around the customer and then zero parts data which I think sounds quite similar to that, which is the data which someone willingly gives you. This is above and beyond their basic contact details and names.

Georgie: Yes, exactly. Yeah, I guess there's various different terminology but yeah, it gets a bit complex, but that's it in a nutshell.

Paul: Yes, that makes sense. I was just trying to get my head around that. And so which brands are best in class at this, if you were to say, yeah, these are the guys, everyone needs to sign up to their newsletter and just buy a product just to go through their life cycle so you can be inspired for it, who would you point people in the direction of?

Georgie: That's a great question.

Paul: You can use your own work if you really want to.

Georgie: Yeah, there's sort of a few that come to mind and typically all the actual names have gone out of my head, but there's a couple of pet food brands, I think I forgot the name, but it's a dog food brand that does kind of personalized dog food as you'd imagine. The name will come back to me in a minute, but they do a great job and again, they have been talking about quizzes a lot today, but they have a quiz on sites so that you can sort of go through it and find the right food for your dog. And they do a great job of kind of following up with you, particularly if you don't get to the end of your quiz or your consultation and hooking you back in, making sure that you're kind of there and ready to sort of check out and then also post purchase. I think they're doing a super job of keeping you engaged, particularly on subscription type models. You want to get people past that third subscription box, so yeah, that's terrible. I forgot the name.

Paul: Kuchen Map.

Georgie: Yeah, I think that is the one. Yeah, I think it's either that, is it Butternut Box I'm thinking of?

Paul: There's another button up box. Yeah, Butternut Box actually.

Georgie: Yeah, it's one of those I can't remember. Yeah. We work with quite a few sort of subscription type businesses and the challenge there is always customer retention and keeping people on for their third or fifth month subscription. And email often plays quite an interesting role in that relationship in terms of encouraging people to stay subscribed, not to cancel to understand more about what's in the power of their subscription. So can they pause, for example, can they edit the number of whatever they're receiving? And those sort of notifications and those types of emails work quite well in order to kind of reduce churn and keep retention high. So, yeah, it's sort of gone off on a slight tangent here, but I was thinking of the Butternut Box example. So, yeah, retention is offered, influenced by the email side of things.

Paul: I think you have brands like Beer 52, which have a thing where you need to email someone or call them to cancel. And so there's no automatic cancel. But when you do try and cancel, you can just change the frequency. And I found myself just trying to cancel it, and then, well, maybe if I only had it every two months, then that would be fine. But they've got you there and then you're like, oh, it's turned up again. I've still got the last one right. Okay, I've got to definitely cancel it. They're closed, it's a Sunday. I'll wait till the next time you got stuck in those loops. They know how to get you right.

Georgie: Exactly. Yeah. It's quite a sneaky tactic, making it very difficult for people to unsubscribe. But I guess then if they've got you on the phone, then they've got maybe a much better chance of keeping you versus just letting you subscribe on site.

Paul: Yeah. Laziness, I think, kind of goes into play, a massive play in keeping people going. Okay, this has been fascinating and an area which I love, and it's great to sort of hear some of your areas around it. So going to move to a couple of quick fire questions, though, along the way, and I'm sure there's quite a few, given what you do, what are the counter intuitives that you come across every day or that you believe are really true when it comes to brand building?

Georgie: Yeah, I think maybe this is yeah, you can tell me what we think of this one. Maybe this is a bit counterintuitive, but I think one…

Paul: I'll give you a score.

Georgie: Yeah, okay. New clients will often say to us is like, you know, we don't want to come across as being spammy or annoying our audience. And my kind of particularly with email or SMS, and my sort of point them is always as long as you're sending good quality content and you're adding value to that person and they're opening that email and they're reading it or that SMS, then you can continue to send more. We touched on earlier that we've got a couple of secular emails in our inbox that we always read, and that's the Holy Grail. That's where you want to get to, where you got an audience of people who are looking forward to opening your emails, but it's not about necessarily sending tons and tons of emails and being spammy. Obviously, no one. Wants to do that. It's just about tweaking the content so that you're adding value and that people are actively sort of getting value from your emails and wanting to open them. So there's almost no limit to the number of emails you can send as long as they continue to add value and that people are engaging with them. So it's sort of a slight mindset shift I suppose from I don't want to send tons of emails and annoy people to, well if I'm sending lots of high value content then actually I'm providing plenty of value there. So I think it's a slight, I'm not sure if I've explained that very well, but it's probably a bit of a slight mindset shift that we have to sometimes take clients to.

Paul: Massively agree with that. It's something that we would say at Juliet, that when we look at most brands, they are engineered to build, not even engineered, they're just built to drive sales. Right? So if you think about email, you're thinking about it as a channel that will get me more sales. So what will I do? Well, I'll talk about products and sales and discounts and sales and that is the majority of email, but the brands that are doing so much better than ever, regardless of whether it's on social email or whatever, they're the ones that have been engineered to drive word of mouth. And if you're thinking about word of mouth, you're thinking about adding value. And so if all you're thinking about is this is a channel for me to add value so that someone will just tell other people how wonderful their experience is with our brand, then they're going to tell other people. And it's that mindset shift, which is just their different ways of building brands. And it's night and day between those that succeed and those that don't succeed or have got to a stage. And that mindset has shifted in a private equity company have taken them over and said you've got to make more money. And then they drive the sales and they inevitably kill the brand. But I wholeheartedly agree.

Georgie: Yeah, good, okay. I think you articulate that much better than me. So hopefully everyone listening kind of gets what we're talking about now, which is that nerd out here.

Paul: So talking of being nerdy, if you could choose to bring anyone from the world of brand building out for lunch, who would you invite?

Georgie: This is a great question. I think I need some time to think about this one, but off the top of my head it would probably be some of the kind of I'm not sure godfather is the right word but god, I'm going to go over there. Godfathers have kind of brand marketing or the fact that people who did the branding for Nike or those sorts of huge brands, I would love to just pick their brains, understand kind of where the concept came from and also, it's so different. Nike has been around for a very long time and it's potentially quite different back then. And just understanding the kind of how brands are built or were built then versus now and the shift that a company like that has gone through. I guess Coca Cola might be another one, but those sorts of historic sort of brands that have gone through timeless shifts and have continued to grow and shifted the brand and taking on new marketing channels and all that sort of stuff. As social media has come into the fruition and all that stuff, I think there's tons of dive into there.

Paul: It's amazing how Nike is still so relevant today, and given its history and how relevant it was with the Air Jordan, how relevant it is today, it's just phenomenal to see that there's. The founder of Nike, Phil Knight, wrote the book Shoe Dog, all about that journey, which I love and would recommend to anyone, because if you narrow down it and it's the same thing right there was just like, caring deeply about creating a great shoe for people like him who like to run. And it was that niche community and the adding of the value to those people that basically it then built upon. And obviously he's done it right. He's done all right.

Georgie: Yeah.

Paul: Cool. And a final question for me. So if you were to give any advice to your 21 year old self, what would it be?

Georgie: Gosh, I think it's just learning from other people, taking on as much info as you possibly can, making mistakes, not being afraid to fail. I think that's one of the ways that we continue to grow and learn within my own agency, is kind of learning by failure and that sort of thing. So I think a couple of things there would be to speak to people who are further down the line in their role, career, whatever it might be, be hungry to learn and don't be afraid of failing.

Paul: Love that, great nuggets there. And so if anyone wants to get in touch with you, how can they find you? And so they can geek out about lifecycle management and SMS and email and all that good stuff.

Georgie: Yes, if you want to geek out on email or any of that good stuff, you can find us. Our website is Pepped, peppedup.co.uk. We've got loads of kind of webinars and bits and pieces coming up, so that's a great place to check out. Also on LinkedIn. So Georgie Carter and I guess those are probably the best, yeah, best two places to find us.

Paul: That's amazing. Georgie, thank you so much for your time and hope to catch up soon.

Georgie: Thank you. Yes, and great. Thanks so much.